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[Fwd: Arab 24 tone, Schoenberg]

🔗Neil Haverstick <stick@xxxxxx.xxxx>

3/13/1999 9:35:49 PM

🔗Patrick Pagano <ppagano@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

3/13/1999 10:03:46 PM

Neil
it is also customary in thailand and other areas for prostitutes to worship
humongous wooden penises because that is how they make their living. Though i
don't want to see that when I am eating i'm sure it has it's place. ahem
And regarding Schoenberg--Der Mondfleck is one of the most beautiful pieces of
music ever....Der mondfleck BTW is german for humongous wooden penis.
Love and Tets
Pat

Neil Haverstick wrote:

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Arab 24 tone, Schoenberg
> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:29:37 -0700
> From: Neil Haverstick <stick@dnvr.uswest.net>
> To: tuning@onelist.com
>
> When I consider what scales a non "Western" culture uses for their
> music, I always take into account the influence of European ideas upon
> said folks...I have the feeling that, before the white guys colonized
> the world, that most people around the globe did not use any sort of
> equal temperaments. It surprises me not that contemporary Arabian
> musicians may use 24 tone eq temp...I consider that a sad situation, for
> the most part, and roughly analogous to the appearance of Starbucks in
> Peking, and McDonalds in Antarctica. When I look for music from Asia,
> Turkey, Middle East, etc, I am usually not interested in how these folks
> adapted (perverted?)their ideas to 12 tone eq...I want to hear music
> that reflects the traditions of their culture. I was in a Vietnamese
> restaurant the other day, and the muzac on the house system made me
> ill...it was Vietnamese pop arrangements of such things as spaghetti
> western themes, and tunes such as "Apache" (one of my sentimental
> favorites). It was so horrible that I will never go back to this
> venue...I mentioned to the waitress that I would like to hear music from
> her culture on the stereo, rather than what they were playing, and she
> said "this IS music from my culture"...yikes. Sure it is, but it is the
> very worst of Vietnamese music, then, and is really only a cheesy
> adaptation of what the Yankees brought over. I'll never forget going to
> a concert of Vietnamese music last year, and the highlight was a woman
> in hot pants/halter top, singing "Hotel California" ..everyone seemed to
> love it. I don't consider 12 or 24 tone equal temperament an improvement
> on the music of non Western cultures, at least what I've heard to
> date..it just makes everything sound the same...which is exactly what
> would make the colonists happy.
> As for Schoenberg, I've not heard a lot of his stuff...his Violin
> Concerto is one of the most cold and remote pieces of music I've ever
> heard...there is, for me, a complete abscence of any sort of humanity in
> this work...and I do think that Schoenberg was a genius, of
> sorts...Hstick

🔗Can Akkoc <akkoc@xxxx.xxxx>

3/15/1999 10:51:37 AM

At 22:35 3/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Message-ID: <36EB4941.9F5B1FF5@dnvr.uswest.net>
>Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:29:37 -0700
>From: Neil Haverstick <stick@dnvr.uswest.net>
>X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0;
html=0; linewidth=0
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: tuning@onelist.com
>Subject: Arab 24 tone, Schoenberg
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> When I consider what scales a non "Western" culture uses for their
>music, I always take into account the influence of European ideas upon
>said folks...I have the feeling that, before the white guys colonized
>the world, that most people around the globe did not use any sort of
>equal temperaments. It surprises me not that contemporary Arabian
>musicians may use 24 tone eq temp...I consider that a sad situation, for
>the most part, and roughly analogous to the appearance of Starbucks in
>Peking, and McDonalds in Antarctica. When I look for music from Asia,
>Turkey, Middle East, etc, I am usually not interested in how these folks
>adapted (perverted?)their ideas to 12 tone eq...I want to hear music
>that reflects the traditions of their culture. I was in a Vietnamese
>restaurant the other day, and the muzac on the house system made me
>ill...it was Vietnamese pop arrangements of such things as spaghetti
>western themes, and tunes such as "Apache" (one of my sentimental
>favorites). It was so horrible that I will never go back to this
>venue...I mentioned to the waitress that I would like to hear music from
>her culture on the stereo, rather than what they were playing, and she
>said "this IS music from my culture"...yikes. Sure it is, but it is the
>very worst of Vietnamese music, then, and is really only a cheesy
>adaptation of what the Yankees brought over. I'll never forget going to
>a concert of Vietnamese music last year, and the highlight was a woman
>in hot pants/halter top, singing "Hotel California" ..everyone seemed to
>love it. I don't consider 12 or 24 tone equal temperament an improvement
>on the music of non Western cultures, at least what I've heard to
>date..it just makes everything sound the same...which is exactly what
>would make the colonists happy.
> As for Schoenberg, I've not heard a lot of his stuff...his Violin
>Concerto is one of the most cold and remote pieces of music I've ever
>heard...there is, for me, a complete abscence of any sort of humanity in
>this work...and I do think that Schoenberg was a genius, of
>sorts...Hstick
>
>
Dear Mr. Haverstick,

To 'see' the actual scales used in the 'derhag' tradition in Turkish music
may I refer you to an article of mine that was presented at the annual
meeting of the study group 'maqam' of the ICTM (International Council for
Traditional Music) last October in Istanbul. I am trying to determine the
actual scales, as opposed to scales 'suggested' by theoreticians, by making
measurements on actual improvisations from indisputable masters in various
'modes'. The 'scales' I am uncovering are far from being equally tempered.
Furthermore, they are nor even deterministic. Instead, they are in the form
of 'distributions' where a certain 'note' is represented by a cluster of
sounds displaying a certain statistical distribution. The number of such
clusters varies with the modal scale being used. My research is still in
its infancy and already it is very exciting to deal with non-deterministic
scales. Regards.

Dr. Can Akkoc
Alabama School of Mathematics and Science
1255 Dauphin Street
Mobile, AL 36604
USA

Phone: (334) 441-2126
Fax: (334) 441-3290
Web: http://199.20.31.100/GIFT/

🔗Gary Morrison <mr88cet@xxxxx.xxxx>

3/15/1999 10:58:45 PM

> I have the feeling that, before the white guys colonized
> the world, that most people around the globe did not use any sort of
> equal temperaments.

I could be mistaken, but I got the impression that the Siam's use of a tuning
that is nearly exactly 7TET predates the time of European colonization.

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

3/16/1999 3:30:29 PM

>> I have the feeling that, before the white guys colonized
>> the world, that most people around the globe did not use any sort of
>> equal temperaments.

Gary Morrison wrote,

> I could be mistaken, but I got the impression that the Siam's use of
a tuning
>that is nearly exactly 7TET predates the time of European colonization.

Yes, both Siamese and European cultures developed ET in order to
facilitate modulation. Modulation is not found in most other cultures.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

3/16/1999 10:11:34 PM

Gary Morrison wrote:

> From: Gary Morrison <mr88cet@texas.net>
>
> > I have the feeling that, before the white guys colonized
> > the world, that most people around the globe did not use any sort of
> > equal temperaments.
>
> I could be mistaken, but I got the impression that the Siam's use of a tuning
> that is nearly exactly 7TET predates the time of European colonization.

Their tuning is close to 7ET but not any more that Slendro is 5ET.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

3/16/1999 10:24:34 PM

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> >> I have the feeling that, before the white guys colonized
> >> the world, that most people around the globe did not use any sort of
> >> equal temperaments.
>
> Gary Morrison wrote,
>
> > I could be mistaken, but I got the impression that the Siam's use of
> a tuning
> >that is nearly exactly 7TET predates the time of European colonization.
>
> Yes, both Siamese and European cultures developed ET in order to
> facilitate modulation. Modulation is not found in most other cultures.

All the cent measurements I have seen do not show 7ET any more than it does
with the Chopi of Africa who even say they tune to seven Equal. Equal can
mean different things to different people.
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

🔗Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

3/17/1999 12:14:52 AM

Message text written by Paul Erlich

>Yes, both Siamese and European cultures developed ET in order to
facilitate modulation. Modulation is not found in most other cultures.
<

The origins of Thai tunings are obscure; while the utility for
transposition is clear, the association of particular pentatonic "keys"
with particular repertoire. Indeed, this suggests that 7tet was
approximated as a means for the idiophones in the ensemble in order to play
with a variety of other instruments, not as a device in itself.

Daniel Franke informs me that at one point in Chinese court music history,
well before adoption of 12tet in the west, a good approximation of equal
temperament was ordered so that the calendric modulations through the
ritual stone chime repertoire would be represented by exact transpositions.
The conjectured Babylonian harp tuning document suggests that modulation by
fifths was a device of extreme antiquity across Asia.

Modulation -- albeit of the well tempered, not equal tempered sort -- is
found in many musics. In East Bali, players in the ritual 7-tone ensembles
modulate with great virtuosity to each of seven five-tone modes. In Central
Java, modulation between pathet is common, both within a single piece and
in transpositions of whole pieces from one pathet to another. In Japan,
some items in the Gagaku repertoire exist in several modal transpositions.
Modulation via transposition is central to African xylophone playing. And
in South India, the Raga Malaka ("Garland of Ragas")transverses a series of
modes within a single improvisation; these modes are typically related as
if they followed a logical sequence of key signature changes, in effect,
modulation by fifths.

🔗Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

3/17/1999 12:09:53 PM

>Their tuning is close to 7ET but not any more that Slendro is 5ET.

-- Kraig Grady<

KG:

I hate to be the bringer of bad news again, BUT, with the advent of digital
tuners, _some_ (by no means not all) Thai (and exile Laotian) musicians
have adopted a fairly exact 7tet. My friend Sam Ang Sam has written (in
_Ethnomusicology_) that Cambodian tunings deviate considerably from 7tet,
but not in predictable ways, so that even there one is left with 7tet as
the tuning underlying the instruments of fixed pitch. As for slendro, in
Malaysia, the Gamelan Malayu are tuned as accurately as possible to 5tet
(with pitch 1 fixed to a western C or Bb), while musicians in Cirebon (the
westernmost ethnic Javanese) and Sunda always recognize their tunings as
being more not quite 5tet but more "equal" than the central Javanese. So,
imagine if you will a continuum of slendros on a Northwest slope from 5tet
Malaysia through the intermediate Cirebon/Sunda region and on to a
decidedly non-5tet Yogya/Solo.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

3/17/1999 4:42:25 PM

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@compuserve.com>
>
> >Their tuning is close to 7ET but not any more that Slendro is 5ET.
>
> -- Kraig Grady<
>
> KG:
>
> I hate to be the bringer of bad news again, BUT, with the advent of digital
> tuners, _some_ (by no means not all) Thai (and exile Laotian) musicians
> have adopted a fairly exact 7tet. My friend Sam Ang Sam has written (in
> _Ethnomusicology_) that Cambodian tunings deviate considerably from 7tet,
> but not in predictable ways, so that even there one is left with 7tet as
> the tuning underlying the instruments of fixed pitch. As for slendro, in
> Malaysia, the Gamelan Malayu are tuned as accurately as possible to 5tet
> (with pitch 1 fixed to a western C or Bb), while musicians in Cirebon (the
> westernmost ethnic Javanese) and Sunda always recognize their tunings as
> being more not quite 5tet but more "equal" than the central Javanese. So,
> imagine if you will a continuum of slendros on a Northwest slope from 5tet
> Malaysia through the intermediate Cirebon/Sunda region and on to a
> decidedly non-5tet Yogya/Solo.

I would be surprised if some hadn't tried it. I remember Kunst discussing
some indonesians also using a 10 equal but time will tell if this is more than
isolated experiments. The Burmese have been using 12 tone pianos also. They
don't hear the scale the same way I do though !
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com