Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Microtonal Webern

Joe Pehrson wrote:

> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14626
>
> Anyway, congrats, again and I'm sure we will figure out how Webern
> fits into microtonal tuning discussion. If not, I will personally
> make something up...

No need to make anything up, Joe...
Webern definitely fits in all on his own, without help...

A long time ago, Daniel Wolf wrote:

> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:37:03
>
> In the just published volume of the Mitteilungen der Paul Sacher
> Stiftung (No. 11, April 1998) is a brief article by Dominik
> Schweiger with the titled Weberns verworfene Mikrotöne.
> ("Webern's abandoned microtones"). This deals with two pitches
> found in variant manuscript versions of two songs, "An baches
> ranft" from op. 3, and "Das Lockere saatgefilde lechzet krank"
> from the 1908-09 Four Stefan George Songs. Schweiger offers some
> suggestions as to the interpretation of these two pitches which
> are defined by the composer only as lying between two 12tet
> pitches. The harmonic contexts are not analyzed here in any
> detail, so it is unclear whether Webern had specific pitches in
> mind or was just seeking some particularly expressive intonation,
> one, as Schweiger points out, possibly related to Sprechgesang.

Since this particular subject is one that is very dear to my heart,
and since last week I had the good fortune to be able to access
the wonderful U. of Penn library in Philadelphia, I found not only
the Schweiger article but also all but one of Schweiger's references.

I did a rough translation of it into English, and will make a
webpage of it in the future, after I've polished the translation
a bit and translated the pertinent info from the other citations.

In the meantime, I've added this info, along with the important
stuff I found on Schoenberg's interest in microtonality, to my
_A Century of New Music in Vienna_ webpage, which has just undergone
a major update:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/schoenberg/Vienna1905.htm

Note that it appears that Webern's notation of microtones in
these sketches of 1908/09 was the apparent inspiration for
Schoenberg's later invention of _sprechstimme_!

I'm very happy to see that the more I work on this page, the
more my two main musical interests, Mahler/Schoenberg and
microtonality, are coming together!

A couple of important questions:

Can anyone point me to information on Willi von Möllendorff?
His quarter-tone harmonium is what inspired Haba to go microtonal;
I'd love to have copies of his articles. The Tuning and Temperament
Bibliography gives this info for his early papers:

- Möllendorf, Willi. Musik mit Vierteltönen, Verlag von F.E.C.
Leuckart, Leipzig, 1917. 58 pages. (LOC#: ML3809.M74)

- Möllendorf, Willi. "Vierteltönen", Neue Zeitschrift für Musik
vol. 84 Yearbook, 1917, p. 68 (LOC#: ML5.N4 ?, Music Microfiche 6)

I found the first one [trans.: 'Music with Quarter-tones, Experiences
with the Bichromatic Harmonium'] to be available at the Library of
Congress in Washington DC, but can't find the second one anywhere.

Also, does anyone know where I can find the original 1907 German
version of Busoni's _Sketch for a New Aesthetic of Music_, or its
revised English translation of 1911? The only German version I've
found is the revised 2nd edition of 1916, and the commonly available
English reprint is a translation of that, AFAIK.

It's important to me to know exactly what Busoni had to say about
1/3-tones at the earlier dates, since Busoni sent Schoenberg a copy
of his book on 1909.8.24 and Schoenberg's correspondence with him
mentions both those 1/3-tones and the earlier notation Schoenberg
had devised for 1/4-tones. I previously knew nothing about any
of this.

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <josephpehrson@compuserve.com>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/15891

>>
>
> A long time ago, Daniel Wolf wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:37:03
> >
> > In the just published volume of the Mitteilungen der Paul Sacher
> > Stiftung (No. 11, April 1998) is a brief article by Dominik
> > Schweiger with the titled Weberns verworfene Mikrotöne.
> > ("Webern's abandoned microtones"). This deals with two pitches
> > found in variant manuscript versions of two songs, "An baches
> > ranft" from op. 3, and "Das Lockere saatgefilde lechzet krank"
> > from the 1908-09 Four Stefan George Songs. Schweiger offers some
> > suggestions as to the interpretation of these two pitches which
> > are defined by the composer only as lying between two 12tet
> > pitches. The harmonic contexts are not analyzed here in any
> > detail, so it is unclear whether Webern had specific pitches in
> > mind or was just seeking some particularly expressive intonation,
> > one, as Schweiger points out, possibly related to Sprechgesang.
>

Hi Monz!

When you mentioned "microtonal Webern," immediately the idea of
"expressive orchestration" came to mind. After all, isn't the
process of listening to individual pitches with their distinct
timbres in Webern a little like harmonic spectral appreciation a la
Sethares??
Well, at least it's going in that direction...

>
> In the meantime, I've added this info, along with the important
> stuff I found on Schoenberg's interest in microtonality, to my
> _A Century of New Music in Vienna_ webpage, which has just undergone
> a major update:
>
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/schoenberg/Vienna1905.htm
>

This is a great page... It seems like you have added some more
illustrations to this than I remember! A great resource!

>
> Note that it appears that Webern's notation of microtones in
> these sketches of 1908/09 was the apparent inspiration for
> Schoenberg's later invention of _sprechstimme_!
>

It would be interesting to think about some of Paul Erlich's ideas of
SPEECH as one of the evolutionary mechanisms that created certain
kinds of pitch discrimination... Perhaps Schoenberg was actually
going back to that (!?)

>
> I'm very happy to see that the more I work on this page, the
> more my two main musical interests, Mahler/Schoenberg and
> microtonality, are coming together!
>
More on this is always welcome!

>
>
> Also, does anyone know where I can find the original 1907 German
> version of Busoni's _Sketch for a New Aesthetic of Music_, or its
> revised English translation of 1911? The only German version I've
> found is the revised 2nd edition of 1916, and the commonly available
> English reprint is a translation of that, AFAIK.
>
> It's important to me to know exactly what Busoni had to say about
> 1/3-tones at the earlier dates, since Busoni sent Schoenberg a copy
> of his book on 1909.8.24 and Schoenberg's correspondence with him
> mentions both those 1/3-tones and the earlier notation Schoenberg
> had devised for 1/4-tones. I previously knew nothing about any
> of this.
>

Hmmm. It's too bad Otto Luening isn't around anymore, since he
conceivably could have had a copy of the Busoni book in German...
You might want to ask his wife Catherine or, even better, George
Boziwick at the Lincoln Center Library where all the Luening archives
and materials are. Luening was quite close to Busoni...

And then, of course, there's Morton Feldman... That kind of
listening HAS to have something to do with tuning (or perception,
anyway!)

________ ___ __ __
Joseph Pehrson

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" wrote:

> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/15958
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/15891
>
> >>
> >
> > A long time ago, Daniel Wolf wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:37:03
> > >
> > > In the just published volume of the Mitteilungen der Paul Sacher
> > > Stiftung (No. 11, April 1998) is a brief article by Dominik
> > > Schweiger with the titled Weberns verworfene Mikrotöne.
> > > ("Webern's abandoned microtones"). <snip>
>
>
> ...isn't the process of listening to individual pitches with
> their distinct timbres in Webern a little like harmonic spectral
> appreciation a la Sethares??
> Well, at least it's going in that direction...

Why, yes, Joe, I think it *is* similar... Don't forget that
Webern's teacher Schoenberg is the guy who came up with the
idea of _Klagfarbenmelodie_: a continuous shifting of timbres
on more-or-less the same pitches, so that the changing overtones
in the harmonic spectra of the various instruments would give
a 'melody of tone-colors'. Schoenberg had a big argument with
Mahler around 1904 about the possibility of doing this, and then
he actually carried out the idea in 1909 in the third piece of
his _Five Pieces for Orchestra_.

I've speculated that one reason Mahler disagreed was that perhaps
he had lost some of his ability to hear high-frequency overtones,
due to aging and the volume of large orchestral _tuttis_ to which
he exposed himself nearly every day in his duties as a conductor.

>
> >
> > In the meantime, I've added this info, along with the important
> > stuff I found on Schoenberg's interest in microtonality, to my
> > _A Century of New Music in Vienna_ webpage, which has just
> > undergone a major update:
> >
> > http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/schoenberg/Vienna1905.htm
> >
>
> This is a great page... It seems like you have added some more
> illustrations to this than I remember! A great resource!

Thanks, Joe. Yes, there are a lot more illustrations, and many,
many more to come. There has also been a big increase in the
number of MIDI-files, particularly of Schoenberg's very early
work.

(Unfortunately, after doing a lot of work on my MIDI-file
of _Pelleas und Melisande_, I apparently saved it with the
wrong name... and I can't fix it now while I'm away from home,
so for right now I've had to disable the link to that file...)

I intend to eventually provide MIDI-files for all of the pieces
I mention in that page... or at least excerpts of them.

>
> >
> > Note that it appears that Webern's notation of microtones in
> > these sketches of 1908/09 was the apparent inspiration for
> > Schoenberg's later invention of _sprechstimme_!
> >
>
> It would be interesting to think about some of Paul Erlich's
> ideas of SPEECH as one of the evolutionary mechanisms that
> created certain kinds of pitch discrimination... Perhaps
> Schoenberg was actually going back to that (!?)

Hmmm... that's an interesting link that you've noticed. I suppose
you're on the right track insofar as Schoenberg obviously had
an incredibly good ear, and probably trained himself to hear
overtones in human speech as well as in instruments.

But I think that mostly his invention of _sprechstimme_ had
to do with his search for more expressive musical techniques.
That seems to have been his biggest concern around 1904-12.

In connection with the question of who actually came up with
the idea for _sprechstimme_, I should point out that Webern and
Schoenberg both emphasized the way they (and Berg) all shared
in the fantastic developments of this period. Schoenberg said
later in life that he had to be careful of mentioning new ideas
to Webern because he 'stole' them and immediately used them in
his own pieces, and it's clear to me that it also worked the
other way: in many cases, Webern used an interesting new idea
first and Schoenberg developed it further and got the credit... it
looks to me like that's exactly what happened with _sprechstimme_.

Thanks for the tips on searching for Busoni stuff via Luening.
Since you're in NYC, can you look up any of this for me? I can
retrieve it when I visit you.

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
'All roads lead to n^0'