Bagpipes scale

On Tuesday I heard an excellent bagpipes player in my local Irish pub.
Although he did use glissandi in one piece, his basic fingering scale seemed
to be a Mixolydian one, with at least three sizes of whole tone, and all
notes beatless against the drone except for one:

(drone = 1/2)
1st: 1/1
2nd: 9/8
3rd: 5/4
4th: flat and rapidly beating (~21/16?)
5th: 3/2
6th: 5/3
7th: 7/4
8th: 2/1

>From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
>
>On Tuesday I heard an excellent bagpipes player in my local Irish pub.
>Although he did use glissandi in one piece, his basic fingering scale seemed
>to be a Mixolydian one, with at least three sizes of whole tone, and all
>notes beatless against the drone except for one:
>
>(drone = 1/2)
>1st: 1/1
>2nd: 9/8
>3rd: 5/4
>4th: flat and rapidly beating (~21/16?)
>5th: 3/2
>6th: 5/3
>7th: 7/4
>8th: 2/1

Do you mean an uillean piper or a piob mor (scottish pipes)
piper? There are several neutral seconds on the piob mor in order to
(according to what some old piper wrote in a book, but I forget which)
maximize the number of usable pentatonic scales to 3, since the thing
only has 9 notes available.

My mind could be going on the exact details. I *know* there
are books on the piob mor which discuss the tuning details.

--
wm

> Do you mean an uillean piper or a piob mor (scottish pipes)
>piper?

I don't know . . . do they both have a drone? Anyway, this was an Irish pub
. . .

>> Do you mean an uillean piper or a piob mor (scottish pipes)
>>piper?
>
>I don't know . . . do they both have a drone? Anyway, this was an Irish pub
>. . .

They do both have drones. The Scottish variety is typically
played standing, and the player has to blow and turn lovely shades of
red while playing, but the uillean pipes are bellows driven, so the
player is always flapping one arm which is strapped to the bellows.
The uillean piper will also rest the end of the chanter on the knee
(except when needing the lowest note).

The uillean pipes have a larger range and have a less exotic
tuning than the Scottish pipes.

--
wm

The player was standing, and there was no bellows (in the accordian-style
sense). So I guess this was the Scottish variety . . . ? Anyway, do you
remember any more details about the 3-pentatonic tuning?

>The player was standing, and there was no bellows (in the accordian-style
>sense). So I guess this was the Scottish variety . . . ? Anyway, do you
>remember any more details about the 3-pentatonic tuning?

Nope, this this is a good start:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html

The author even uses ratios in his tables. And then this,
which has more detail, and even a reference to the book which
discusses the pentatonic scales...

http://www.iserv.net/~macleod/learning.htm

--
wm

> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/pipescale.html

Thanks for that! It appears that the 4th of the scale is the only
discrepancy with what I observed . . . though I guess I could have assumed
that the beating was due to flatness but was in fact due to sharpness . . .

> http://www.iserv.net/~macleod/learning.htm

Where do I find the good stuff there? I couldn't find it.

I have no idea why an egroups search on "bagpipes" doesn't find it but ...

I pretty much exhausted this topic back in April 99. See
http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/2163
and its follow-ups.

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan
http://dkeenan.com

Ah, thanks Dave. Hmm . . . I'm thinking that it's even more likely that that
beating 4th was sharp rather than flat . . .

The Irish (Uillean) pipes are elbow blown, strapped across the body
with switchable drones, and a sweet sound. The Scottish big pipes
are mouth blown, continuous drone, and are best heard from about 5
miles away. Now which was it?

More seriously, last year on holiday in Ireland my wife bought a few
CDs, including the piping of Seamus Ennis. This is the best CD we
ever bought unheard. The man is a genius. The microtonal shifts in
the slow airs are enough to tune one from 12ET in themselves. Anyone
know anything about this man? All i know is the CD notes, which
suggest that his father was a piper, and as the recordings are all
rather old he may be retired or gone to the great piping in the sky.

==John ffitch

>The Irish (Uillean) pipes are elbow blown, strapped across the body
>with switchable drones, and a sweet sound. The Scottish big pipes
>are mouth blown, continuous drone, and are best heard from about 5
>miles away. Now which was it?

As the famous line goes, "I like them best at a distance." I
have to say, though, that there's something majestic and wonderful
about a dozen pipers up close. Perhaps it only seems majestic after
the substantial tuning time they go through. Anyway, I tried for
about a year to learn piobreachd (not just pipe music, but the old,
formal stuff, with songs lasting up to 40 minutes). After a while,
the practice chanter -- basically a tuned duck call -- gets irritating
so I'd grab the pipes and run out to a local park. Kids from the
surrounding area had to come hear what the amazing sound was. I felt
like the Pied Piper. I'll always remember the shriek one girl let out
when I kick-started the pipes without realizing just how close her
little head was to the practice chanter.

>More seriously, last year on holiday in Ireland my wife bought a few
>CDs, including the piping of Seamus Ennis. This is the best CD we
>ever bought unheard. The man is a genius. The microtonal shifts in
>the slow airs are enough to tune one from 12ET in themselves. Anyone
>know anything about this man? All i know is the CD notes, which
>suggest that his father was a piper, and as the recordings are all
>rather old he may be retired or gone to the great piping in the sky.

The fiddling of at least northern Irish fiddlers has some
interesting tuning things as well. That music was strongly influenced
by Scottish music, and there's a very clear piping esthetic at work.
If you look at "The Northern Fiddler" (out of print but I was lucky
enough to find a copy years ago) is full of tunes where the C# is some
other thing entirely. You can get some of the field recordings from
the book now ("Bundle and Go," with John Doherty, as I recall; have it
at home).

--
wm

>Ah, thanks Dave. Hmm . . . I'm thinking that it's even more likely that
>that beating 4th was sharp rather than flat . . .

What causes you to change your mind after you've heard it?

-Carl

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Carl Lumma <CLUMMA@N...> wrote:
> >Ah, thanks Dave. Hmm . . . I'm thinking that it's even more likely that
> >that beating 4th was sharp rather than flat . . .
>
> What causes you to change your mind after you've heard it?

I said initially that I wasn't sure whether the 4th was sharp or flat, but was sure that it was beating
pretty prominently . . . it sounded good melodically, so I assumed that the 2-3-4-5 tetrachord
was the same as the 5-6-7-8 tetrachord . . . but I could have been wrong . . . I usually have a
good ear, but in this case I honestly couldn't say whether it was sharp or flat.