Shakti concert

I don't have enough superlatives to describe the Shakti concert I saw
last night. Besides McLaughlin, we had Zakir Hussain on tabla, U.
Shrinivas on electric mandolin, and V. Selvaganesh on percussion (sorry,
I don't know the proper names, but there was a clay pot, a long hand
drum, and a small tambourine). I'm not going to give a play by play
description...suffice it to say, the Maestros were in town, and I doubt
if there are folks anywhere in the world who are on a higher level of
musicality...it was transcendent. The response by the crowd at the end
was amazing...people wouldn't quite clapping/yelling...deservedly so.
And, I learned a few things...hate to say it, but the concert
actually made me a bit pissy today, after I turned on the radio and
tried to find some real music to listen to...sorry, the 10 billionth
version of Monk or Charlie Parker, the 20 billionth version of Haydn,
the sorry assed pop/rap, the incredibly lame "country" music...we're in
a sorry assed state, artistically, to be sure. And, again, I hate to say
it, but the only thing I didn't like about the concert was the sound of
the 12 eq scale in the context of their music..I found myself wishing it
would go away, and we could hear the Masters exploring the spaces in
between the 12 tone system. I had a realization, that the 12 tone system
is really coarse sounding, not very subtle compared to many other
available systems...not a big surprise, but true. I have always been
somewhat puzzled why McLaughlin, with his intense interest in Indian
music, never broke away from 12 eq...I think it's a shame. Still, a
marvelous experience..Hstick

>I have always been
>somewhat puzzled why McLaughlin, with his intense interest in Indian
>music, never broke away from 12 eq...

Thanks for your review, Neil. I love the _Remember Shakti_ album recorded in
'97 and released this year - Hariprasad Charasia's flute is probably my
favorite instrument in the world. This album has had a profound influence on
my musical activities, as the '73 Santana-McLaughlin _Love Devotion
Surrender_ album did four or five years ago. I love Miles Davis, Santana,
Hendrix, Duane Allman and his 20-year old reincarnation Derek Trucks. In
Santana's blues, McLaughlin's chaotic bends, Allman's and Truck's slide
genius, and needless to say in Hendrix, the attempt to escape from 12-tET is
speaking loud and clear. Why not make the break? I think the answer is
culture.

To these masters, music was everything, and music meant playing with other
musicians. _Any_ other musicians, from anywhere in the Western world (&
beyond!), who are among the few geniuses who can transcend existing styles
and bridge cultural differences. You want to be able to set up an instant
communication with them, be able to play variations of their ideas and have
them play variations on yours. You don't want them to have to worry about
their intonation and you don't want to have to worry about yours.

From what I caught of their exploration at the Microthon, Bearsley and
Pagano have achieved this much with a particular form of Just Intonation.
The difference is that the 12-eq musicians in question were deeply immersed
in, and masters of, several culturally significant styles of music. They
brought different styles of music together partially by _speaking_ to other
musicians around, all 12-eq-based, in their own languages, and so
compellingly that they became musical leaders . . . I think speaking as
truthfully as possible to as many people, within a group situation rather
than alone, was the goal of these musicians, and had they not been musicians
I think they might have been ministers or politicians or revolutionaries in
a public sphere . . .

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> >I have always been
> >somewhat puzzled why McLaughlin, with his intense interest in
Indian
> >music, never broke away from 12 eq...
>
> Thanks for your review, Neil. I love the _Remember Shakti_ album
recorded in
> '97 and released this year - Hariprasad Charasia's flute is
probably my
> favorite instrument in the world. This album has had a profound
influence on
> my musical activities, as the '73 Santana-McLaughlin _Love Devotion
> Surrender_ album did four or five years ago. I love Miles Davis,
Santana,
> Hendrix, Duane Allman and his 20-year old reincarnation Derek
Trucks. In
> Santana's blues, McLaughlin's chaotic bends, Allman's and Truck's
slide
> genius, and needless to say in Hendrix, the attempt to escape from
12-tET is
> speaking loud and clear. Why not make the break? I think the answer
is
> culture.

As the majority of the above cited musicians are guitarists, I would
venture that one big reason is lack of easy access to low-cost,
factory-made microtonal guitars. Why spend the $$$ for a customized
G&L or put in the effort to refret a guitar when you can pick up a
quality 12tET guitar for $200? When the day comes that you can see
$200 microtonal fretted guitars in all the music superstores (Guitar
Center, Sam Ash, MARS, etc.) then the likelihood of folks branching
out into alternative tuning systems would be that much greater.

BTW, Fernandes sells a $450 fretless acoustic guitar at
fretlessguitar.com.

Paolo

Paolo wrote,

> When the day comes that you can see $200 microtonal fretted guitars
in all the music superstores (Guitar Center, Sam Ash, MARS, etc.) then
the likelihood of folks branching out into alternative tuning systems
would be that much greater.

As this has been a favorite mantra of mine for years, I agree! I think
inertia, the laziness and timidity that come with the comfort of
familiarity, lack of knowing that there are other options, and
convenience are the major backers of the 12 monopoly, and not some
type of inherent cultural onus.

--Dan Stearns

Neil wrote,

> >I have always been
> >somewhat puzzled why McLaughlin, with his intense interest in
Indian
> >music, never broke away from 12 eq...

Paolo wrote,

>As the majority of the above cited musicians are guitarists, I would
>venture that one big reason is lack of easy access to low-cost,
>factory-made microtonal guitars. Why spend the $$$ for a customized
>G&L or put in the effort to refret a guitar when you can pick up a
>quality 12tET guitar for $200?

That's ridiculous. If you find a quality 12-tET guitar for $200, you've
robbed someone blind! G&L makes the _least_ expensive high quality
(electric) guitars on the market, around $1000 new (I got one used for $600)
plus a few bills for the custom fretting if you want it. Well below the
price range of any world-famous guitarist. And how much do you think a
quality bass, saxophone, or violin costs? Guitarists have it good.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> Neil wrote,
>
> > >I have always been
> > >somewhat puzzled why McLaughlin, with his intense interest in
> Indian
> > >music, never broke away from 12 eq...
>
> Paolo wrote,
>
> >As the majority of the above cited musicians are guitarists, I
would
> >venture that one big reason is lack of easy access to low-cost,
> >factory-made microtonal guitars. Why spend the $$$ for a
customized
> >G&L or put in the effort to refret a guitar when you can pick up a
> >quality 12tET guitar for $200?
>
> That's ridiculous. If you find a quality 12-tET guitar for $200,
you've
> robbed someone blind! G&L makes the _least_ expensive high quality
> (electric) guitars on the market, around $1000 new (I got one used
for $600)
> plus a few bills for the custom fretting if you want it. Well below
the
> price range of any world-famous guitarist. And how much do you
think a
> quality bass, saxophone, or violin costs? Guitarists have it good.

Paul,

You obviously have a gross misunderstanding of my post. :)

Try reading it again. I'll be happy to answer your questions if you
still find it incomprehensible. I'm not known for my great
communication skills.

Paolo

Hi Paolo,

Well, whatever our misunderstanding, I agree with you that I'd love to see
$200 microtonal guitars in the big music stores. However, as to the original
question as to why McLaughlin never broke away from 12-tET, my opinion is
still that cost is not the reason.

-Paul

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> Hi Paolo,
>
> Well, whatever our misunderstanding, I agree with you that I'd love
to see
> $200 microtonal guitars in the big music stores. However, as to the
original
> question as to why McLaughlin never broke away from 12-tET, my
opinion is
> still that cost is not the reason.
>
> -Paul

Well, for his case alone, I'd agree with you. This is a man who had
the means to invest in six Minimoogs and a specially built guitar to
play them simultaneously and later invest in a Synclavier guitar
system.

My take was that more musicians, particularly guitarists, would get
into alternative tuning systems if they could pick up such
instruments at a low cost, straight off the rack. Basically the same
point D.Stearns made in his post on this thread. Strides have been
made, in that you can now get a new fretless acoustic for $450 and an
electric with built-in Sustainer for $200 more. Next thing that
needs to be done is get these things into the superstores so that the
Net is not the only option for shopping for these things. And put
out non-Sustainer models (reduce the cost) that are fretted, probably
in some ET that is easy to deal with (you've put in the time
researching ETs so you may have a better idea of a specific "starter"
ET). To digress a bit, I tried a just fretted guitar (admittedly
with a lot of notes squeezed into an octave) and it was kinda tough
to get around.

Paolo

If i could play like Mahavishnu John i probably would not care what tuning i was in.

cheers

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>To digress a bit, I tried a just fretted guitar (admittedly
>with a lot of notes squeezed into an octave) and it was kinda tough
>to get around.

That's doesn't seem like a digression! Can you provide any details? I've
wondered if 31 would be too many, but at the Microthon we heard a musician
from Uruguay get excellent tone in the high register of his electric guitar
with 53 tones per octave . . . it's a matter of practice (and a good setup).

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:
>
> >To digress a bit, I tried a just fretted guitar (admittedly
> >with a lot of notes squeezed into an octave) and it was kinda tough
> >to get around.
>
> That's doesn't seem like a digression! Can you provide any details? I've
> wondered if 31 would be too many, but at the Microthon we heard a musician
> from Uruguay get excellent tone in the high register of his electric guitar
> with 53 tones per octave . . . it's a matter of practice (and a good setup).

Paul, he's referring to my 62-tone/65 fret beast.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

I played it this weekend....fun
fun

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>
To: <tuning@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Shakti concert

>
>
> "Paul H. Erlich" wrote:
> >
> > >To digress a bit, I tried a just fretted guitar (admittedly
> > >with a lot of notes squeezed into an octave) and it was kinda tough
> > >to get around.
> >
> > That's doesn't seem like a digression! Can you provide any details? I've
> > wondered if 31 would be too many, but at the Microthon we heard a
musician
> > from Uruguay get excellent tone in the high register of his electric
guitar
> > with 53 tones per octave . . . it's a matter of practice (and a good
setup).
>
> Paul, he's referring to my 62-tone/65 fret beast.
>
>
> --
> * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
> * 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
> * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
>
>
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