Re: 22 guitar, tuning, MOS

> Graham Breed <g.breed@tpg.co.uk> wrote:

> Otherwise, you'll
> have to choose different fingerings.

Yeah, I'll have to think a little more seriously about different ways to
tune the strings and see if there are any other good ways to do it.

> >(e.g. What kind of hay should I feed it?)
>
> It's really not a good idea to put hay in any musical instrument...

I'll save the hay for special treats when Asta has been good.

> Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@compuserve.com> wrote:

> Some MOS scales worth playing with are... etc.

Thanks! I have meant to explore more of these. I did mention the 12-tone
MOS of 9/22. Also the 7-tone MOS of 3/22 is a form of "equable diatonic",
in which the tetrachords are split into 3 equal parts. It actually sounds
better than I would have expected.

For the sake of completeness, it can be mentioned that 22ET also contains
MOS's of 2, 3, 4, 5 units of 11ET, some of which also appear to be
melodically interesting. I have played a little with a 7-tone mode of the
3/11 MOS -- kind of an exotic "Middle Eastern" sound, for lack of any
better earthly comparison.

Many MOS scales are "improper". What are some people's thoughts on MOS vs
propriety for melodic viability? The few improper MOS's I've played with
do seem to have a feeling of unevenness and big skips -- but that also
contributes to their "exotic" sound. Also, is there any explanation of why
melodic symmetry should be important?

> Peter Blasser <peter.blasser@oberlin.edu> wrote:

> Watchout! Sometimes it seems that the intonation and the bridge are set
> wrong, but the fourths and fifths are really in that weird detuned
> position that 22tet has.

Yes. The 5ths and 4ths are off just enough that it's not safe to tune by
them. I'm mostly trying to tune by fretting each adjacent string to make
an octave or unison with its neighbor, since these are the only just
beatless intervals available. Or, I've tried accurately tuning the A
string and then tuning each other string so that an A fretted on that
string is in tune. Both methods seem to work about equally well.

kp

>Many MOS scales are "improper". What are some people's thoughts on MOS
vs
>propriety for melodic viability? The few improper MOS's I've played
with
>do seem to have a feeling of unevenness and big skips -- but that also
>contributes to their "exotic" sound. Also, is there any explanation of
why
>melodic symmetry should be important?

I think similarity at the fourth or fifth is more important than either
MOS or propriety. The pentatonic scale, the diatonic scale, and my
pentachordal decatonic scale both have the property that every octave
species contains two identical trichords/tetrachords/pentachords, either
disjunct or conjunct, meaning "symmetry" at the 3/2 or 4/3,
respectively, is emphasized. Propriety is nice but shouldn't be wooried
about too strictly -- the Pythagorean diatonic is improper. Carl Lumma
pointed out that both my pentachordal and symmetrical decatonic scales
are strictly proper, which should help in the cognition of chord
construction and characteristic dissonance action. MOS does not appear
to have any importance in and of itself, but it happens to coincide with
scales having other nice properties. I don't think MOS can "explain"
anything that these other properties can't. The Arabic scale 4 3 3 4 4 3
3 in 24-tET is not MOS but has identical tetrachords in 5 of its octave
species. Kraig Grady has mentioned 2nd order MOS scales but I find that
these scales work just as well in tunings where they are not 2nd order
MOS.

Message text written by Paul Erlich

<The Arabic scale 4 3 3 4 4 3 3 in 24-tET is not MOS but has identical
<tetrachords in 5 of its octave species.

The 4 3 3 tetrachord is a MOS within the tetrachord using the generator
7/10.

>MOS does not appear to have any importance in and of itself, but it
happens to coincide with scales having other nice properties. <

MOS is not so much a property of a scale but a property of systems.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

>
> I think similarity at the fourth or fifth is more important than either
> MOS or propriety. The pentatonic scale, the diatonic scale, and my
> pentachordal decatonic scale both have the property that every octave
> species contains two identical trichords/tetrachords/pentachords, either
> disjunct or conjunct, meaning "symmetry" at the 3/2 or 4/3,
> respectively, is emphasized. Propriety is nice but shouldn't be wooried
> about too strictly -- the Pythagorean diatonic is improper. Carl Lumma
> pointed out that both my pentachordal and symmetrical decatonic scales
> are strictly proper, which should help in the cognition of chord
> construction and characteristic dissonance action. MOS does not appear
> to have any importance in and of itself, but it happens to coincide with
> scales having other nice properties. I don't think MOS can "explain"
> anything that these other properties can't. The Arabic scale 4 3 3 4 4 3
> 3 in 24-tET is not MOS but has identical tetrachords in 5 of its octave
> species. Kraig Grady has mentioned 2nd order MOS scales but I find that
> these scales work just as well in tunings where they are not 2nd order
> MOS.

Could you give an example of where these are not 2nd order MOS. The MOS is
superior in its evaluation of scale formations in that it can encompass
these types of scales. Tetrachoral scales have their own logic. the
Enharmonic scale cannot be explained with any of the above theories. 24ET
is and never was used by the Arabs (and I don't believe ever will). This
culture where the west got EVERYTHING musical preserved and expanded upon
the Greek use of tetrachords.They did take the cycle of 3/2s out to 24
places. The thing with MOS it does not state that all scales are MOS but
all MOS and at least Second order MOS are. It is one of the best tools for
finding new scales . I for one like the 13 tone subsets in 22 and from this
subset I extracted 9 to tune as bass notes. these Bass notes are 4 opposite
pairs of the Cps I use and as my CD shows, these notes, regardless of the
ratios hold together as a very cohesive scale.
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote:

>24ET is and never was used by the Arabs (and I don't believe ever will). <

I'm sorry to say that instruments fretted to 24tet are to be found
throughout the near and middle east. Among musicians and scholars this is
not without controversy, but the phenomenon is a real enough.

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@compuserve.com>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> >24ET is and never was used by the Arabs (and I don't believe ever will). <
>
> I'm sorry to say that instruments fretted to 24tet are to be found
> throughout the near and middle east. Among musicians and scholars this is
> not without controversy, but the phenomenon is a real enough.

Where. I'll believe it when I see it. (I'm sure your right!) Then again what
is played on it. The traditional repertoire wouldn't work. I have never found
a recording using this scale.
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

Message text written by INTERNET:tuning@onelist.com
>Where. I'll believe it when I see it. (I'm sure your right!) Then again
what is played on it. The traditional repertoire wouldn't work. I have
never found a recording using this scale.
-- Kraig Grady<

Just go to Damascus, Beirut or Cairo and buy a tambour.

While Turkish frettings have remained stubbornly non-24tet (despite the
introduction of off-the-boat synthesizers and bass guitars to the Arabesque
ensemble) with 14 to 53 frets in various pythagorean schemes, the
long-necked lutes in much of the Arab world, especially those associated
with film music and other urban entertainment musics, are almost inevitably
in 24tet. While musicians playing ney, ud, and other instruments without
fixed pitch definitely prefer non-tempered tuning, the 24tet versions of
maqam are accepted in practice. 24tet is not here a western import, but
comes from a local theoretical tradition that was especially strong in the
19th century.

I have also seen 24tet Bazoukis in Greece. Not frequently, but it is (or
was, 12 years ago) possible to go into a shop in Athens and buy one off the
rack. (And if you were lucky the neck would keep from warping for a week or
two...)

Neil Haverstick made an assertion about the impact of the west on tunings
in the rest of the world. This has to be answered in two important regards:

The first is that all of the great cultures of Asia have long possessed
their own technical means to implement such temperaments, without the
influence of western tonal hegemony. Indeed, it is we in the West who owe
the Islamicate world for critical elements of tonal and mathematical
understanding.

The second point is simply that the major exporters, whether direct or
through corporate holdings, of tempered music, instruments and technology
to the world are East Asian, of which Japan has the largest share. The
major exporter of non-tempered music is the Indian film industry, a major
force in world popular culture, but one virtually unknown in western
countries. In a real sense, a competition between ETs and non-ETs is being
played out on the world stage by India and East Asia. (At the moment, the
score is 2:1 for 12tet Hong Kong martial arts films over Indian musicals.)
Europeans and Americans, although providing raw musical products to the
12tet side, are basically watching it all from the substitute's bench.

Daniel Wolf wrote:

>
>
> Just go to Damascus, Beirut or Cairo and buy a tambour.
>
> While Turkish frettings have remained stubbornly non-24tet (despite the
> introduction of off-the-boat synthesizers and bass guitars to the Arabesque
> ensemble) with 14 to 53 frets in various pythagorean schemes, the
> long-necked lutes in much of the Arab world, especially those associated
> with film music and other urban entertainment musics, are almost inevitably
> in 24tet. While musicians playing ney, ud, and other instruments without
> fixed pitch definitely prefer non-tempered tuning, the 24tet versions of
> maqam are accepted in practice. 24tet is not here a western import, but
> comes from a local theoretical tradition that was especially strong in the
> 19th century..

As L.A. has a very large population of Mid east artist and Mid east stores
with instruments. Hundreds of Cassettes shops, I have not seen such an animal.
It seems that the contexts in which have seen the instruments are merely
attempts by of a bridge between cultures and not a representation of the vast
body of music. In fact the Yamaha Mid east Syn does not play in 24 ET. What is
the earliest date in which tuning appeared and once again the point that the
traditional music cannot be played on such an instrument. Still not convinced
that these are nothing more that city toys!
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

I wrote,

>>I don't think MOS can "explain"
>> anything that these other properties can't. The Arabic scale 4 3 3 4
4 3
>> 3 in 24-tET is not MOS but has identical tetrachords in 5 of its
octave
>> species. Kraig Grady has mentioned 2nd order MOS scales but I find
that
>> these scales work just as well in tunings where they are not 2nd
order
>> MOS.

Kraig Grady wrote,

>Could you give an example of where these are not 2nd order MOS.

Many of the 5-out-of-diatonic MOS scales sound great in 22, even though
the diatonic is not MOS in 22. And what about JI?

>The MOS is
>superior in its evaluation of scale formations in that it can encompass
>these types of scales. Tetrachoral scales have their own logic. the
>Enharmonic scale cannot be explained with any of the above theories.

Enharmonic scales have identical tetrachords in three octave species.

>24ET
>is and never was used by the Arabs (and I don't believe ever will).This
>culture where the west got EVERYTHING musical preserved and expanded
upon
>the Greek use of tetrachords.They did take the cycle of 3/2s out to 24
>places.

Just about all the Arabic music I've ever heard that is clearly
xenharmonic uses whole tones and sesquitones. 24tET or not, these are
not MOS scales. When you reply, please base it on Arabic music you've
HEARD, not medieval Arabic theory.

>The thing with MOS it does not state that all scales are MOS but
>all MOS and at least Second order MOS are.

Are what?

>It is one of the best tools for
>finding new scales . I for one like the 13 tone subsets in 22 and from
this
>subset I extracted 9 to tune as bass notes. these Bass notes are 4
opposite
>pairs of the Cps I use and as my CD shows, these notes, regardless of
the
>ratios hold together as a very cohesive scale.

Can you elaborate on this please, so those of us playing along can
follow?

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >Could you give an example of where these are not 2nd order MOS.
>
> Many of the 5-out-of-diatonic MOS scales sound great in 22, even though
> the diatonic is not MOS in 22. And what about JI

Here you have a great example of third order MOS. But you can think of it
as an MOS containing a MOS that is also a 1st order MOS. The cases with JI
are referred to as Constant Structures meaning that they reflect the MOS as
an archetype. I'm sorry if this is not mathematically deterministic enough
for you!

>
>
> >24ET
> >is and never was used by the Arabs (and I don't believe ever will).This
> >culture where the west got EVERYTHING musical preserved and expanded
> upon
> >the Greek use of tetrachords.They did take the cycle of 3/2s out to 24
> >places.
>
> Just about all the Arabic music I've ever heard that is clearly
> xenharmonic uses whole tones and sesquitones. 24tET or not, these are
> not MOS scales. When you reply, please base it on Arabic music you've
> HEARD, not medieval Arabic theory.

Gee, Maybe you would like me to send you pictures of the CD covers with
String instruments with unequally spaced frets. I sure the Santur players I
have are capable of tuning to 24 ET, something that can't be done by ear.
And Oh yes I love all the Hamza El Din in 24ET. WRONG. I sorry if you only
listen to their pop music. What about Iranian unfettered strings. What
about the Ney. It seems the only places that Wolf saw these instruments was
place adjacent to 12ET countries. I assume this accommodate musician that
play both. All near east. I hold by what I said In that I hear Pythagorean
and certain neutral intervals.

>
>
> >The thing with MOS it does not state that all scales are MOS but
> >all MOS and at least Second order MOS are.
>
> Are what?

Scales, of course.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

>> >Could you give an example of where these are not 2nd order MOS.
>
>> Many of the 5-out-of-diatonic MOS scales sound great in 22, even
though
>> the diatonic is not MOS in 22. And what about JI

>Here you have a great example of third order MOS.

With high enough order MOS you could construct any imaginable pitch set!
That doesn't speak well for any explanatory power in MOS theory.

>But you can think of it
>as an MOS containing a MOS that is also a 1st order MOS. The cases with
JI
>are referred to as Constant Structures meaning that they reflect the
MOS as
>an archetype. I'm sorry if this is not mathematically deterministic
enough
>for you!

It's fine, I just think the non-MOS explanations work better.

>> Just about all the Arabic music I've ever heard that is clearly
>> xenharmonic uses whole tones and sesquitones. 24tET or not, these are
>> not MOS scales. When you reply, please base it on Arabic music you've
>> HEARD, not medieval Arabic theory.

>Gee, Maybe you would like me to send you pictures of the CD covers with
>String instruments with unequally spaced frets.
>[...]
>I hold by what I said In that I hear Pythagorean
>and certain neutral intervals.

This doesn't contradict anything I said, Kraig!

>>>The thing with MOS it does not state that all scales are MOS but
>>>all MOS and at least Second order MOS are.
>
>> Are what?

>Scales, of course.

Does "at least Second order MOS" include 3rd and higher orders? If so,
can you give me an example of a pitch set that is not a scale?

Message text written by INTERNET:tuning@onelist.com
>It seems the only places that Wolf saw these instruments was
place adjacent to 12ET countries. I<

Kraig Grady:

I think your geography is a bit skewed. It is only in Turkey -- the major
Islamicate country closest culturally to Europe -- where non-tempered
tunings have maintained their monopoly in both classical, folk, and
arabesque repertoires.

Kraig Grady wrote:

>>It seems the only places that Wolf saw these instruments was
>place adjacent to 12ET countries. I<

Daniel Wolf wrote,

>Kraig Grady:

>I think your geography is a bit skewed. It is only in Turkey -- the
major
>Islamicate country closest culturally to Europe -- where non-tempered
>tunings have maintained their monopoly in both classical, folk, and
>arabesque repertoires.

Though I think Daniel's right, it should be mentioned that Turkish
theory recognizes a division of the octave into 53 equal parts. However,
the difference between 53-equal and Just/Pythagorean versions of Turkish
scales is exceedingly small -- on the order of 0.1 to 1 cent -- far
smaller than the deviations that would occur in even the most ideal
musical circumstances. I've played on a Turkish saz with very unevenly
spaced frets but the smallest intervals were eighth-tones (approximately
1/53 octave) and these tended to occur in pairs, dividing in half the
second smallest interval (quartertones or 2/53 octave). The placing of
these frets was surely too approximate to distinguish between 53-equal
and JI/Pythagorean (by the latter I could mean either JI extended much
farther along the 3-axis than the 5-axis, or Pythagorean with schismatic
approximations to 5-limit intervals).

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> >> >Could you give an example of where these are not 2nd order MOS.
> >
> >> Many of the 5-out-of-diatonic MOS scales sound great in 22, even
> though
> >> the diatonic is not MOS in 22. And what about JI
>
> >Here you have a great example of third order MOS.
>
> With high enough order MOS you could construct any imaginable pitch set!
> That doesn't speak well for any explanatory power in MOS theory.

Not any but quite an arsenal of usable scales. In the end you just have to
use your ear. Wilson has only taken it out to the 2nd order. The rules for
these might be that the generator will always be subtended by the same
number of steps and other intervals can be more flexible. This is besides
the point, It makes more sense to investigate all the layers of MOS and
find the scales and then figure out what it is they have in common. The ear
is the leader

>
>
> >But you can think of it
> >as an MOS containing a MOS that is also a 1st order MOS. The cases with
> JI
> >are referred to as Constant Structures meaning that they reflect the
> MOS as
> >an archetype. I'm sorry if this is not mathematically deterministic
> enough
> >for you!
>
> It's fine, I just think the non-MOS explanations work better.

But doesn't explain many usable scales, even the simple pentatonics found
in the diatonic. Or the vast number of JI scales

>
>
> >> Just about all the Arabic music I've ever heard that is clearly
> >> xenharmonic uses whole tones and sesquitones. 24tET or not, these are
> >> not MOS scales. When you reply, please base it on Arabic music you've
> >> HEARD, not medieval Arabic theory.
>
> >Gee, Maybe you would like me to send you pictures of the CD covers with
> >String instruments with unequally spaced frets.
> >[...]
> >I hold by what I said In that I hear Pythagorean
> >and certain neutral intervals.
>
> This doesn't contradict anything I said, Kraig!

I will take your word that there is 24et music in the near east. I did a
quick count of over 39 CDs from the mid east none are in 24ET or sound like
24ET. The logic of this would lead us to conclude that the africans use
12ET because of all the african pop with guitars.

>
>
> >>>The thing with MOS it does not state that all scales are MOS but
> >>>all MOS and at least Second order MOS are.
> >
> >> Are what?
>
> >Scales, of course.
>
> Does "at least Second order MOS" include 3rd and higher orders? If so,
> can you give me an example of a pitch set that is not a scale?

c d e g a b, c d e f g a etc.
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@compuserve.com>
>
> Message text written by INTERNET:tuning@onelist.com
> >It seems the only places that Wolf saw these instruments was
> place adjacent to 12ET countries. I<
>
> Kraig Grady:
>
> I think your geography is a bit skewed. It is only in Turkey -- the major
> Islamicate country closest culturally to Europe -- where non-tempered
> tunings have maintained their monopoly in both classical, folk, and
> arabesque repertoires.

I believe the same is true of Iran. What east of Jordan has 24ET?
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> >>It seems the only places that Wolf saw these instruments was
> >place adjacent to 12ET countries. I<
>
> Daniel Wolf wrote,
>
> >Kraig Grady:
>
> >I think your geography is a bit skewed. It is only in Turkey -- the
> major
> >Islamicate country closest culturally to Europe -- where non-tempered
> >tunings have maintained their monopoly in both classical, folk, and
> >arabesque repertoires.
>
> Though I think Daniel's right, it should be mentioned that Turkish
> theory recognizes a division of the octave into 53 equal parts. However,
> the difference between 53-equal and Just/Pythagorean versions of Turkish
> scales is exceedingly small -- on the order of 0.1 to 1 cent -- far
> smaller than the deviations that would occur in even the most ideal
> musical circumstances. I've played on a Turkish saz with very unevenly
> spaced frets but the smallest intervals were eighth-tones (approximately
> 1/53 octave) and these tended to occur in pairs, dividing in half the
> second smallest interval (quartertones or 2/53 octave). The placing of
> these frets was surely too approximate to distinguish between 53-equal
> and JI/Pythagorean (by the latter I could mean either JI extended much
> farther along the 3-axis than the 5-axis, or Pythagorean with schismatic
> approximations to 5-limit intervals).

I understand that they tune to a 17 tone subset of 53. One musician told me
that his teacher could tell the regions of various players by the slight
differences in intonations of where their frets were along with the width
of their not bends. There are all types of differences even within a
country.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

>
>I believe the same is true of Iran. What east of Jordan has 24ET?
>-- Kraig Grady<

Iraq and the Gulf states...

Look, Kraig, I won't belabor the point, but 24tet exists and is widely used
in these places, the impulse came from their own theoretical traditions
(which are obsessed with the issue of finding the right equal division) and
it exists side-by-side with non-equal systems.

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@compuserve.com>
>
> >
> >I believe the same is true of Iran. What east of Jordan has 24ET?
> >-- Kraig Grady<
>
> Iraq and the Gulf states...
>
> Look, Kraig, I won't belabor the point, but 24tet exists and is widely used
> in these places, the impulse came from their own theoretical traditions
> (which are obsessed with the issue of finding the right equal division) and
> it exists side-by-side with non-equal systems.

I can only take your word for it because I said none of my recordings (quick
count of 39 CDs, not to mention records) use 24 ET. There quite a big active
Mideast community in L.A. which I frequent their concerts and never have seen
such an animal. Also I have not heard one mid east musician mention it to me.
this means that in your contacts in must be common but in mine it is not. I
still believe the farther east you go the less you will find.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

I wrote,

>> Does "at least Second order MOS" include 3rd and higher orders? If
so,
>> can you give me an example of a pitch set that is not a scale?

Kraig Grady wrote

>c d e g a b, c d e f g a etc.

These are two traspositions of the hexatonic scale, which I love because
it's just two interlaced triads so sounds great with an echo effect
repeating at half the rate at which you play the scale. The Allman
Brothers use this scale extensively in their solos, probably because
it's so easy to harmonize without ever running into a tritone. But I
agree with you that a scale really sounds much more complete if every
perfect fifth is subtended by the same number of steps. I don't know I'd
carry this over to other gererating intervals, though.