Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning lowpass filter vs. tuning issues?

hello microtonal forks,
About a year ago I bought a Moogerfooger lowpass filter for
my bass so I could get that funky triggered wah sound. At one
point I was using it on my retuned Rhodes but decided that if
the resonant filter wasn't tuned to the particular tuning
I was using on that instrument it would jive with the tuning.
I feel that the filter would just emphasize one frequency
over the others and not really complement the tuning.

What do you folks think about using this effect this way? +2 or -2%

The aforementioned effect now sits on top of my rack next
to a drum machine but patched into an effect send.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

🔗graham@microtonal.co.uk

In-Reply-To: <3A069F12.75B344B6@virtulink.com>
David Beardsley wrote:

> About a year ago I bought a Moogerfooger lowpass filter for
> my bass so I could get that funky triggered wah sound. At one
> point I was using it on my retuned Rhodes but decided that if
> the resonant filter wasn't tuned to the particular tuning
> I was using on that instrument it would jive with the tuning.
> I feel that the filter would just emphasize one frequency
> over the others and not really complement the tuning.

I don't think it's that important: you're still getting a harmonic series
out. And, if it's a wah, the filter won't be constant, so you won't be
emphasising one partial over the others.

I'm thinking of connecting a filter cutoff to a keyboard, as an
experiment. I suppose that wouldn't work with your hardware, but it would
mean the filter was always in tune.

> What do you folks think about using this effect this way? +2 or -2%

I'm still not sure exactly how you're using it. But I'm all for filters
-- the more the merrier! I suppose if you're emphasising the 7th or 11th
partials (which does sound nice) of some notes you may conflict with a
5-limit scale. But you can find a cutoff that should work. I don't see
this as a problem. Anyway, rejecting a nice, juicy effect because it
conflicts with the tuning is a bizarre attitude to start with.

Now chorus, that's a different matter entirely. It tends not to work
right with JI-like tunings. And pitch shifters are usually hard-wired to
Equal Temperament. But filters -- I don't see any problems. Let us know
if you come across any.

Graham

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

David Beardsley wrote,

>About a year ago I bought a Moogerfooger lowpass filter for
>my bass so I could get that funky triggered wah sound. At one
>point I was using it on my retuned Rhodes but decided that if
>the resonant filter wasn't tuned to the particular tuning
>I was using on that instrument it would jive with the tuning.
>I feel that the filter would just emphasize one frequency
>over the others and not really complement the tuning.

Hi David.

The Mu-tron-like triggered wah effect is known as a "dynamic filter" -- the
filter's cutoff frequency is a function of the volume of the signal going
in. Hence it is highest (or lowest) at the moment of the attack, and
smoothly declines (or ascends) from there. There is no one frequency that is
emphasized by this effect, particularly since you will attack your Rhodes or
bass slightly differently for each note.

-Paul

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

Thanks Graham & Paul for your thoughts. Anybody else?
I still feel the Moogerfooger works best on bass and
drum machines. I know I can hook up a CV pedal any of the
4 knob controlled parameters and one of these gives me a wah,
but I don't feel like kicking out the cash for one.

On Saturday I'm playing ebo lap steel at AFMM. I've been thinking
of trying it on the lap steel but probably won't use it at the show.

db
--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
> Thanks Graham & Paul for your thoughts. Anybody else?
> I still feel the Moogerfooger works best on bass and
> drum machines.

As opposed to the Rhodes? That would make sense, since each note on
the Rhodes has a relatively limited spectrum -- so the filter would
mainly have the effect of suppressing the volume of the note as the
cutoff frequency fell below the note's fundamental frequency.
However, if you're playing full two-handed chords on the Rhodes, the
effect might still be somewhat interesting, as different notes in the
chord would stand out as the chord decayed.

Bass sounds and drum sounds have wider-ranging spectra so the wah
effect would be quite noticeable. Enhancing the upper-frequency
components of the sound will generally make the wah effect more
noticeable -- using the bridge pickup on the guitar, for example.
However, you don't want to over-do it, which is why any distortion is
typically placed _after_ any wah effects, rather than before them, in
the signal chain.

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

Graham wrote:

> I don't think it's that important: you're still getting a harmonic series
> out. And, if it's a wah, the filter won't be constant, so you won't be
> emphasising one partial over the others.

One way of using it is to turn down the envelope
so it doesn't wah but just makes the tone fat.
The filter controls frequency (I think, I'm still
kind of new at this analog stuff). This is actually
what made me stop using it with the Rhodes. If it
emphasizes one frequency over another, that means
one note sticks out. Not what I'm looking for!

> I'm thinking of connecting a filter cutoff to a keyboard, as an
> experiment. I suppose that wouldn't work with your hardware, but it would
> mean the filter was always in tune.

I have a Korg MS2000R. Maybe I could pull it off with that box.
I haven't tried the audio in on it yet. Or the vocoder. Hmmm.
I should do something about trying the vocoder, maybe I can
get some neat JI harmony effects...

> Now chorus, that's a different matter entirely. It tends not to work
> right with JI-like tunings. And pitch shifters are usually hard-wired to
> Equal Temperament. But filters -- I don't see any problems. Let us know
> if you come across any.

I ruled out both a long time ago.

db
--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
> > Thanks Graham & Paul for your thoughts. Anybody else?
> > I still feel the Moogerfooger works best on bass and
> > drum machines.
>
> As opposed to the Rhodes? That would make sense, since each note on
> the Rhodes has a relatively limited spectrum -- so the filter would
> mainly have the effect of suppressing the volume of the note as the
> cutoff frequency fell below the note's fundamental frequency.
> However, if you're playing full two-handed chords on the Rhodes, the
> effect might still be somewhat interesting, as different notes in the
> chord would stand out as the chord decayed.

On the Rhodes the tuning deteriorates the longer the notes are
held. Quite strange on chords.

> Bass sounds and drum sounds have wider-ranging spectra so the wah
> effect would be quite noticeable. Enhancing the upper-frequency
> components of the sound will generally make the wah effect more
> noticeable -- using the bridge pickup on the guitar, for example.
> However, you don't want to over-do it, which is why any distortion is
> typically placed _after_ any wah effects, rather than before them, in
> the signal chain.

It's nice to have some kind of pre-amp or compressor before
a wha. My old wah died of old age recently, I haven't replaced
it yet. It started to wah on it's own when it was off line.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

>
> On the Rhodes the tuning deteriorates the longer the notes are
> held. Quite strange on chords.

The _tuning_ deteriorates? Very strange! Filters of course can't mess
with the tuning, so you must be experiencing some problem with the
Rhodes itself or some auditory illusion. Can you elaborate?

>
> My old wah died of old age recently, I haven't replaced
> it yet. It started to wah on it's own when it was off line.
>
I'm sorry to hear that. it makes me cry Waa waa . . .

I had a Cry Baby unit but it died rather young . . .

My favorite wah/mu-tron unit is the Boss Dynamic Filter. I bought one
in high school and got a Roland Expression pedal for it, then the
Boss unit was stolen and they were no longer being made, then a
friend gave me his on permanent loan. You can set it to work in
Dynamic Filter mode (either up or down), or use the expression pedal
like a wah-wah. By adjusting the sensitivity, frequency, and Q
setting, you can get anything from a subtle vocality to a total
Bootsy sound. I'll see if I can work it into my AFMM set somehow.

🔗graham@microtonal.co.uk

In-Reply-To: <3A07A027.9C4FC75E@virtulink.com>
David Beardsley wrote:

> Graham wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking of connecting a filter cutoff to a keyboard, as an
> > experiment. I suppose that wouldn't work with your hardware, but it
> > would mean the filter was always in tune.
>
> I have a Korg MS2000R. Maybe I could pull it off with that box.
> I haven't tried the audio in on it yet. Or the vocoder. Hmmm.
> I should do something about trying the vocoder, maybe I can
> get some neat JI harmony effects...

That looks sufficiently flexible that it might work. I did set this up on
Kyma list night. With high Q and resonance, moving the filter by
semitones made no obvious difference to the sound. But there's also a
"feedback" mode, which gives a whine at the cuttoff frequency when turned
to extremes. That means you can play tunes in the feedback: the only
rewarding part of the experiment. It appears the usual keyboard range
isn't enough for the effects I get by twisting the cutoff knob. Getting
portamento to work might help.

Paul Erlich wrote:

In this case, perhaps distortion before the wah would do the trick, if the
Rhodes starts out without the high components. Clean distortion will
still give a harmonic waveform. Maybe even the heretical step of putting
compression first, so that single notes and chords get distorted equally.

🔗Joseph Pehrson <pehrson@pubmedia.com>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/15285

> One way of using it is to turn down the envelope
> so it doesn't wah but just makes the tone fat.
> The filter controls frequency (I think, I'm still
> kind of new at this analog stuff). This is actually
> what made me stop using it with the Rhodes. If it
> emphasizes one frequency over another, that means
> one note sticks out. Not what I'm looking for!
>

You know, this is a good opportunity to make a couple of comments on
David's music. Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to comment
on people's music who are on the list... but since it's
complementary, and since his music will soon be featured, like
Saturday, I will.

The CURIOUS thing is that although David's music is fundamentally
"static" in conception... I don't mean that as a negative... just
that it is a slowly changing "wall of sound" for the most part, one
would think that it would get tiresome.

I had that problem recently with the computer-generated work of
Warren Burt, which made me "squirm" in my seat a bit. (Gee, that's a
graphic image).

HOWEVER, for some reason, David Beardsley's music is not boring.
It's a curious phenominon. It SHOULD be boring: face it, it goes on
for hours (I don't know how much time Johnny R. is giving it this
year... but the selections CAN be long).

Why is it?? It MUST be the nature of the sonorities he uses...
perhaps the fact that they are basically JUST, although complex.
Maybe the blend...

Dunno. It's fundamentally static, but I can listen to literally
hours of the stuff...

ohm mmmmmm

_______ ____ __ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

🔗shreeswifty <ppagano@bellsouth.net>

I enjoy Db's music quite a bit and since we are performing together on
saturday let me say
that good things take time
10 minutes or 65 when the speed of dark hits
there is no escape
there is only ATARAXYA
see you all soon

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Pehrson <pehrson@pubmedia.com>
To: <tuning@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: [tuning] David Beardsley's music

> --- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/15285
>
> > One way of using it is to turn down the envelope
> > so it doesn't wah but just makes the tone fat.
> > The filter controls frequency (I think, I'm still
> > kind of new at this analog stuff). This is actually
> > what made me stop using it with the Rhodes. If it
> > emphasizes one frequency over another, that means
> > one note sticks out. Not what I'm looking for!
> >
>
> You know, this is a good opportunity to make a couple of comments on
> David's music. Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to comment
> on people's music who are on the list... but since it's
> complementary, and since his music will soon be featured, like
> Saturday, I will.
>
> The CURIOUS thing is that although David's music is fundamentally
> "static" in conception... I don't mean that as a negative... just
> that it is a slowly changing "wall of sound" for the most part, one
> would think that it would get tiresome.
>
> I had that problem recently with the computer-generated work of
> Warren Burt, which made me "squirm" in my seat a bit. (Gee, that's a
> graphic image).
>
> HOWEVER, for some reason, David Beardsley's music is not boring.
> It's a curious phenominon. It SHOULD be boring: face it, it goes on
> for hours (I don't know how much time Johnny R. is giving it this
> year... but the selections CAN be long).
>
> Why is it?? It MUST be the nature of the sonorities he uses...
> perhaps the fact that they are basically JUST, although complex.
> Maybe the blend...
>
> Dunno. It's fundamentally static, but I can listen to literally
> hours of the stuff...
>
> ohm mmmmmm
>
> _______ ____ __ __ _
> Joseph Pehrson
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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mode.
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emails.
>
>
>

🔗Clark <CACCOLA@NET1PLUS.COM>

Paul wrote:

> The _tuning_ deteriorates? Very strange! Filters of course can't mess
> with the tuning, so you must be experiencing some problem with the
> Rhodes itself or some auditory illusion. Can you elaborate?

I think it's noticable on loud bass notes, like to low tension piano
strings. Plus I assume the spring/rubber tine mountings probably damp
enough
to change a slightly inharmonic timbre over time. I don't have any to
check, though.

Graham wrote:

> Maybe even the heretical step of putting compression first, so that
> single notes and chords get distorted equally.

This might even out the effects of the envelope filter. An
interesting effect, if used sparingly is using envelope filters with
instruments that
can change amplitude while they sustain. There are a couple timbral
wolves on my viol that make the things go berserk - David, I bet you
could get similar effects using the ebow, maybe with indefinite
terminations with a slide, or placing it sightly offset of a string
node.

Clark

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> The CURIOUS thing is that although David's music is fundamentally
> "static" in conception... I don't mean that as a negative... just
> that it is a slowly changing "wall of sound" for the most part, one
> would think that it would get tiresome.

> HOWEVER, for some reason, David Beardsley's music is not boring.
> It's a curious phenominon. It SHOULD be boring: face it, it goes on
> for hours (I don't know how much time Johnny R. is giving it this
> year... but the selections CAN be long).

Thanks for the kind words Joseph! I had 20-25 min. last year,
Pat and I are getting a 10 min. slot this year. I usually do 1 hour
sets.
After I played Sonic Bloom (the piece you're refering to) at the
Knitting
Factory in Sept.'99 I retired it for a while. I've adopted a
policy of only performing new pieces when I get an opportunity
to play because the opportunities are so few! At least for now...

> Why is it?? It MUST be the nature of the sonorities he uses...
> perhaps the fact that they are basically JUST, although complex.
> Maybe the blend...

Right. I usually use some kind of echo so that there's a transition
between one chord or dyad and the next where both are sustaining
while the first fades away. Echos and acoustic imaging are so important
to this piece.

In my recent drone pieces I've been using sine tones. Most of these,
including Sonic Bloom are improvisations with rules. The latest, Vixa,
started like that but I've decided to explore diffrent voicings
of 4 note microtonal clusters. I'll probably have to use a keyboard
instead of a guitar as a midi controller. There goes another two or
three
hundred dollars...ouch...maybe I'll just use my tiny Casio for midi,
but that little thing must look silly from the audience. I could wear a
gold
pyramid on my head and maybe a blue robe with stars, moons and planets.
And maybe I shouldn't. Get the cheap midi keyboard.

> Dunno. It's fundamentally static, but I can listen to literally
> hours of the stuff...
>
> ohm mmmmmm

I tend to listen to hours of similar music. Hindustani Raga,
Electronic Drones or dubby Laswell funk. Repeated exposure to
one style definitely enhances the experience.

It's funny that you write Ohm. My friend Jason Gross
co-produced the Ohm comp on Ellipsis Arts and thanked me
in the liner notes partally because I was one of many
who suggested that title. There's a lot to be said for drones,
although as a listener I do enjoy pointalistic music.

And I have to give credit to La Monte Young, Terry Riley, Brian
Eno, and Robert Fripp among many others for guiding me down this path.
I'm not the trail blazerz they are but just looking for my own trail.
db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

🔗shreeswifty <ppagano@bellsouth.net>

i agree
eno is a very transitional artist in so many ways
on the edge of so many things
I think i read in an interview that Eno's first performance was of a Lamonte
Young Piece

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
To: <tuning@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 1:33 AM
Subject: [tuning] Re: David Beardsley's music

> --- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
>
> > And I have to give credit to La Monte Young, Terry Riley, Brian
> > Eno, and Robert Fripp among many others for guiding me down this
> path.
>
> I've always thought the wide glissandi on Fripp and Eno's _No
> Pussyfooting_ to be an extremely powerful, sort of all-encompassing
> microtonal experience.
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@egroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@egroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@egroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@egroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@egroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
>
>
>

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

🔗shreeswifty <ppagano@bellsouth.net>

Thanks Mr Reinhard!
see you Saturday !
cheers

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: <Afmmjr@aol.com>
To: <tuning@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: David Beardsley's music

> To Messrs. Pagano, Beardsley, and interested parties:
>
> You now have a full 17 minutes for your set on Saturday's Microthon.
>
> Johnny Reinhard
>
> (unfortunately Mavera from Turkey will not be joining us this year)
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@egroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@egroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@egroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@egroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@egroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
>
>
>

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

🔗Vas Gardiakos <vas@albrite.com>

Hello All,

Wow!! Just got through
listening to David Beardsley's
Ar TAr and Sonic Bloom at
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/200/david_beardsley1.html
What great music.
Then I read it is microtonal
Is David a mamber of the Tuning List?

My question, if any one can help is
in the 13 tone scale, if one can only use
6 or 8 notes, which notes should one use.

I am new to all this microtuning stuff
so do not be too techincal. I just need the
basics so I can tune my PC sound card
when I get it.

I beleive D. Sterns answered this in his
1-6-2001 8:49 Pm message. However it was not
clear enough for me.

(I printed the message but no where
is the message number noted!!!)

vas

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>

Vas Gardiakos wrote,

<< My question, if any one can help is in the 13 tone scale, if one
can only use 6 or 8 notes, which notes should one use. >>

One can use anything one wants to. The 13 equal examples I gave were
just ones that I happened to use/like, though they are notable in that
they are all ear derived and don't particularly shine in any real
easily discernable way *theoretically*...

Experiment, experiment, experiment.

--Dan Stearns