re:[tuning] Wilson CPS

Hello tuning group !
Please allow me to introduce myself.
My name is Justin White. I'm a self taught dabbler in microtonal music
(mostly extended justintonation). I have only been at it a while (2 years)
and have used an Ensoniq asrs-x sampler and a Yamaha DX7iis keyboard and
some software to make or attempt to make popular music in 13 limit just
intonation. I live in Australia so I think it may only be me, Warren Burt
and a handful of others who are making this kind of music.

I've just started making Wilson combination product sets and recently made
one I'm quite happy with ( a 3/12 cps using the integers
1,2,3,4,5,7,9,11,13,15,21,27) this set seems to include al the sensible
chord types that would occur in just intonation minus any chord types that
are a direct result of 12tet chromatic substitution.

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Justin !
Are you treating this set as octave specific or are you reducing the into a single octave?

This is quite a large set and some of the tones (21, 27) can be thought of as 3*7 and 3*9. Not
saying you can do this this -just curious.

Justin White wrote:

> Hello tuning group !
> Please allow me to introduce myself.
> My name is Justin White. I'm a self taught dabbler in microtonal music
> (mostly extended justintonation). I have only been at it a while (2 years)
> and have used an Ensoniq asrs-x sampler and a Yamaha DX7iis keyboard and
> some software to make or attempt to make popular music in 13 limit just
> intonation. I live in Australia so I think it may only be me, Warren Burt
> and a handful of others who are making this kind of music.
>
> I've just started making Wilson combination product sets and recently made
> one I'm quite happy with ( a 3/12 cps using the integers
> 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,11,13,15,21,27) this set seems to include al the sensible
> chord types that would occur in just intonation minus any chord types that
> are a direct result of 12tet chromatic substitution.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Justin White" <justin.white@d...> wrote:
>
> Hello tuning group !
> Please allow me to introduce myself.
> My name is Justin White. I'm a self taught dabbler in microtonal
music
> (mostly extended justintonation). I have only been at it a while (2
years)
> and have used an Ensoniq asrs-x sampler and a Yamaha DX7iis

Welcome from a fellow newbie.

How's the ASR-X's reliability for you? I've been looking up user
reviews at Harmony Central and SonicState and there seem to be a lot
of complaints about bug-ridden ASR-X's. To be fair, most of those
reviews seem to have been posted before version 2.67 of its software.

My main electronic instrument is the Roland Handsonic hand percussion
instrument. The internal sound engine is basically a ROM sample
player with effects and tuning capability to 1 cent resolution. Just
intonation is also the way I am going. There are no global tuning
tables so it would be a real pain to switch between different JI
tunings (Wendy Carlos, Catler, Pagano, etc.), meantone, various ETs,
etc. as I'd have to program an entire pad set for each tuning. I
figure something like the ASR-X with its one user table and multiple
preset tuning tables (Partch 43 tone JI, 31t-ET, etc.) might be an
inevitable addition to my setup. If I'm convinced it won't break
down in a couple of months. :)

Thanks,
Paolo

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:25:10 -0700
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
Subject: Re: Wilson CPS

>Justin !
> Are you treating this set as octave specific or are you >reducing the
into a single octave?

>This is quite a large set and some of the tones (21, 27) can >be thought
of as 3*7 and 3*9. Not
>saying you can do this this -just curious.

>Justin White wrote:

>> Hello tuning group !
>> Please allow me to introduce myself.
>> My name is Justin White. I'm a self taught dabbler in microtonal music
>> (mostly extended justintonation). I have only been at it a while (2
years)
>> and have used an Ensoniq asrs-x sampler and a Yamaha DX7iis keyboard and
>> some software to make or attempt to make popular music in 13 limit just
>> intonation. I live in Australia so I think it may only be me, Warren
Burt
>> and a handful of others who are making this kind of music.
>>
>> I've just started making Wilson combination product sets and recently
made
>> one I'm quite happy with ( a 3/12 cps using the integers
>> 1,2,3,4,5,7,9,11,13,15,21,27) this set seems to include al the sensible
>> chord types that would occur in just intonation minus any chord types
that
>> are a direct result of 12tet chromatic substitution.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Hello Kraig,

I'm reducing this set to a single octave rather than having different
intervals in different octaves.

Is this what you mean by octave specific ?

I calculate the product set much like Mclaren (ie get the products & then
make ratios by putting a power of 2 denominator underneath) except I have
been adding a 1/1 by including powers 2 in the set (although from reading
your postings i will not do it that way in the future.
What I want to do is have the 21st and 27th identities connected to lots
of the products to facilitate modulation and chord creation using these
integers (11th and 13th chords in standard practice).

If it is possible to create such a system another way, using fewer tones i
would be please let me know.

Justin White

P.S I like your music very much

Justin White wrote,

>What I want to do is have the 21st and 27th identities connected to lots
>of the products to facilitate modulation and chord creation using these
>integers (11th and 13th chords in standard practice).

>If it is possible to create such a system another way, using fewer tones i
>would be please let me know.

I think what you want to use is not a single CPS but perhaps two or three in
3:2 relationships with one another. We've spoken about stellating CPSs and
modulating between them in the past.

Then again, CPSs might not be what you want to use at all, since it sounds
like you're going for more of a "tonal" type of music. Why don't you spell
out your goals in creating a system and hopefully we can help you acheive
those goals, possibly using an existing theoretical framework.

Happy to help,

Paul

>>What I want to do is have the 21st and 27th identities connected to
lots
>>of the products to facilitate modulation and chord creation using these
>>integers (11th and 13th chords in standard practice).

>>If it is possible to create such a system another way, using fewer tones
i
>>would be please let me know.

>I think what you want to use is not a single CPS but perhaps >two or three
in
>3:2 relationships with one another. We've spoken about >stellating CPSs
and
>modulating between them in the past.

>Then again, CPSs might not be what you want to use at all, >since it
sounds
>like you're going for more of a "tonal" type of music. Why >don't you
spell
>out your goals in creating a system and hopefully we can help >you acheive
>those goals, possibly using an existing theoretical >framework.

What I want to achieve is a system for a interchageable fretboard guitar of
about 30-40 tones per octave having the most condensing set of tonal
relationships (like a hexany but with much more tones !). I've just bought
a Hipshot Trilogy bridge which microtonalists should be made aware of. It
allows you to switch between 3 string tunings on individual strings using
cam levers (I think it gives you a total of 729 different combinations,
though some only differ in 1 string tuning) .

I'll be usingthe bridge in conjunction with the interchangeable fretboards.
A sort of ultimate microtonal guitar !

I was attracted to the cps idea when I read about it in Kraig Grady's '1/1'
article on the Hexany. I liked the idea of local consonance on specific
chords rather than a tonality diamond system where everything refers to 1/1
as the key center.

What you are suggesting could well be the answer I am looking for.
However I don't know how to stellate.

I have looked for articles or postings about stellation but found nothing
so far (except a ref to Paul Rappoport's article "just shape nothing
central" in Musicworks)
Are the forum discussions archived anywhere ( I heard a reference to the
Mill college site is this where they are located ?)

Mind you I have another 3 fretboards to play around with other ideas with (
I was thinking of using some of John Chalmers ideas, tetrachordal diamonds,
hexanies and so forth ( i have just started reading 'Divisions of the
Tetrachord')

Thanks for your suggestions,

Justin White

-

Justin wrote,

>>What I want to do is have the 21st and 27th identities connected to
lots
>>of the products to facilitate modulation and chord creation using these
>>integers (11th and 13th chords in standard practice).

Have you listened to your proposed tunings for these chords? My feeling is
that these chords cannot be expressed as JI chords (though certainly one can
do a lot better than 12-tET) and forcing them into JI robs them of a lot of
their beauty.

>What I want to achieve is a system for a interchageable fretboard guitar of
>about 30-40 tones per octave having the most condensing set of tonal
>relationships (like a hexany but with much more tones !).

What do you mean, the most "condensing" set of tonal relationships?

>I've just bought
>a Hipshot Trilogy bridge which microtonalists should be made aware of. It
>allows you to switch between 3 string tunings on individual strings using
>cam levers (I think it gives you a total of 729 different combinations,
>though some only differ in 1 string tuning) .

Fascinating!

>I'll be usingthe bridge in conjunction with the interchangeable fretboards.
>A sort of ultimate microtonal guitar !

Awesome!!!

>I was attracted to the cps idea when I read about it in Kraig Grady's '1/1'
>article on the Hexany. I liked the idea of local consonance on specific
>chords rather than a tonality diamond system where everything refers to 1/1
>as the key center.

Have you looked much at lattices? Almost any random blob of the lattice will
give you lots of locally consonant, specific chords. The hexany is just one
specific chunk that happens to have the symmetrical, octahedral shape. The
entire infinite 7-limit lattice is composed of interlocking hexanies and
tetrads, so a big chunk of the 7-limit lattice will get you lots of both.
Alternately, you can look at the 7-limit lattice as being composed of
interlocking hexanies and diamonds, so a big chunk of the 7-limit lattice
will get you lots of both. Now if you want to use as large a set of pitches
from the lattice as you can, while restricting yourself to pitches that are
not too close to one another, the type of "blob" you end up with is almost
certainly going to be a periodicity block. See
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/erlich/intropblock1.htm. A great number of
7-limit periodicity blocks have 31 notes, and very few have some other
number of notes between 30 and 40. If you want to reach further into the
lattice, tempering out one or more of the three commas that define the block
can help while necessitating only very tiny departures from JI. If you
temper out all three commas, you get 31-tone equal temperament or a 31-tone
well-temperament.

>What you are suggesting could well be the answer I am looking for.
>However I don't know how to stellate.

We've gone over this on the list but I don't think starting with a CPS is
really going to best address your desires here.

>( I heard a reference to the
>Mill college site is this where they are located ?)

All the discussions since late Dec. '98 are archived right here, on the
egroups site. The Mills discussions (everything before late '98) are
unfortunately not archived, though I know Carl Lumma has a big chunk of them
saved.

Hello
Where can I find about the theory of Wilson's combination product sets?
In what manuscript did this theory first appeared?

Hello Alexandros,

>Where can I find about the theory of Wilson's combination
>product sets? In what manuscript did this theory first appeared?

The first citation I am aware of is Erv's XH12 article,
"D'Alessandro, Like a Hurricane"...

http://xh.xentonic.org/tables-of-contents.html

The full text of the article can be found here...

http://anaphoria.com/dal.PDF

You may find the Tonalsoft encyclopedia entry helpful...

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/cps.htm

-Carl