Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Monzo: 19-tone Samba

--- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:
>
> For an example of a microtonal piece that doesn't sound
> xenharmonic at all, try my _19-tone Samba_:
>
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/19tet/19samba.htm
>
> It's written in 19-tET. A little bird told me that some
> famous 19-toners might be performing it...

That's beautiful! I have some disagreements with what you say on your
webpage, though. I can either post them here, or discuss it with you
offlist, whichever you prefer.

🔗Joseph Pehrson <pehrson@pubmedia.com>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14945

> That's beautiful! I have some disagreements with what you say on
your webpage, though. I can either post them here, or discuss it
with you offlist, whichever you prefer.

I would suggest posting them here, since that will "inspire" more
people to go to Joe Monzo's site...

Joseph

🔗Joseph Pehrson <pehrson@pubmedia.com>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14939

>
> For an example of a microtonal piece that doesn't sound
> xenharmonic at all, try my _19-tone Samba_:
>
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/19tet/19samba.htm
>
> It's written in 19-tET. A little bird told me that some
> famous 19-toners might be performing it...
>
>
> -monz
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

Ummm. Is there a MIDI file of this piece?? There are many
"definitional" links, but I can't seem to find the actual sound
file... (???)

Joe Pehrson

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

I wrote:

> > my _19-tone Samba_:
> >
> > http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/19tet/19samba.htm

Joe Pehrson wrote:

> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14953
>
> Ummm. Is there a MIDI file of this piece?? There are many
> "definitional" links, but I can't seem to find the actual
> sound file... (???)

Major oops! Sorry, Joe - thanks for pointing this out.
I had set up the webpage so that the MIDI-file plays
automatically (well, it works in Microsoft IE, anyway...),
but forgot to put in a link to download the MIDI.
It's been added.

And I agree that Paul should post his comments to the list.
I spent quite a bit of time on the score and MIDI-file, then
threw the webpage together rather quickly. I suspect Paul's
disagreements will mainly concern my allegation that 19-tET
implies 5-limit JI well.

I've been rethinking that statement, because 19-tET clearly
implies 1/3-comma meantone *far* better than any compact
JI system. The way it really approximates JI is as a
string of 6/5 ratios.

Anyway, Paul, fire away...

And thanks for the compliment. Ever since I made up this
tune, I've had a special attachment to it. The problem is
that I've never been able to add anything to it to make it
a real 'piece'. So hopefully, it will be picked up by those
talented musicians I alluded to, and they can jam on it and
really make it into something.

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

Re: my _19-tone Samba_:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/19tet/19samba.htm

Paul: I see that your message about this webpage was sent last
night, and I was making further additions to the webpage and the
MIDI-file late into the night here (which would be early morning
for you).

So be sure to click the 'refresh/reload' button when you go
back to my webpage, to get the latest version. (Otherwise you'll
be viewing the old version that's stored on your hard-drive.)

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

🔗M. Edward Borasky <znmeb@teleport.com>

The way I see it is that 19-tet simply provides closer approximations to
some of the just intervals than 12-tet does. I've forgotten the exact
mathematical reasons why this is true, but if you do the calculations for
the nearby 20-tet and 21-tet, they don't match as well as 19-tet. I think
you have to go to 31-tet to find a better match. I think the math is in
Helmholz/Ellis; I don't have my copy handy.
--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com

Cold leftover pizza: it's not just for breakfast any more!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Monz [mailto:MONZ@JUNO.COM]
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 9:22 AM
> To: tuning@egroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Monzo: 19-tone Samba
>
>
>
> I wrote:
>
> > > my _19-tone Samba_:
> > >
> > > http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/19tet/19samba.htm
>
> Joe Pehrson wrote:
>
> > http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14953
> >
> > Ummm. Is there a MIDI file of this piece?? There are many
> > "definitional" links, but I can't seem to find the actual
> > sound file... (???)
>
>
> Major oops! Sorry, Joe - thanks for pointing this out.
> I had set up the webpage so that the MIDI-file plays
> automatically (well, it works in Microsoft IE, anyway...),
> but forgot to put in a link to download the MIDI.
> It's been added.
>
>
> And I agree that Paul should post his comments to the list.
> I spent quite a bit of time on the score and MIDI-file, then
> threw the webpage together rather quickly. I suspect Paul's
> disagreements will mainly concern my allegation that 19-tET
> implies 5-limit JI well.
>
> I've been rethinking that statement, because 19-tET clearly
> implies 1/3-comma meantone *far* better than any compact
> JI system. The way it really approximates JI is as a
> string of 6/5 ratios.
>
> Anyway, Paul, fire away...
>
>
> And thanks for the compliment. Ever since I made up this
> tune, I've had a special attachment to it. The problem is
> that I've never been able to add anything to it to make it
> a real 'piece'. So hopefully, it will be picked up by those
> talented musicians I alluded to, and they can jam on it and
> really make it into something.
>
>
> -monz
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
>
>
>
>
>
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🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

Why did Woolhouse advocate 19-tET but not 22-tET, which is nearly as
good as 19-tET in the 5-limit? Why did he advocate 31-tET but not 34-
tET, which is better in than 31-tET in the 5-limit? 50-tET but not 53-
tET, though 53-tET is much better than 50 in the 5-limit?

I'll give you a hint by attempting to reply to this claim:

>It's easy to see that the intervals of all the chords here imply
>5-limit JI very well, which is the main reason why the piece sounds
>so 'ordinary'.

I would claim that that's not the main reason. If you tried to play
the piece in 22-tET, where the chords imply 5-limit JI nearly as well
as the chords in 19-tET do, the piece will sound a lot
less "ordinary" -- in fact it will sound rather "off". Meanwhile, if
you tried to play it in Pythagorean tuning, where the chords imply 5-
limit JI even less than they would in 12-tET, it would sound
pretty "ordinary" again -- though the chords would be more dissonant.

By the way, there is one move that sounds a little "extraordinary" in
your piece -- when the B shifts to Bb, it only moves by 1/19 octave
or 63 cents -- definite microtonality. However, as your newer remarks
imply, this (and the whole piece) employ the familiar diatonic
structure and nomenclature that has been associated with triadic
harmony for about 500 years now.

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

I'll give you a hint by attempting to reply to this claim:

>It's easy to see that the intervals of all the chords here imply
>5-limit JI very well, which is the main reason why the piece sounds
>so 'ordinary'.

🔗John A. deLaubenfels <jdl@adaptune.com>

[Paul E:]
>Why did Woolhouse advocate 19-tET but not 22-tET, which is nearly as
>good as 19-tET in the 5-limit? Why did he advocate 31-tET but not 34-
>tET, which is better in than 31-tET in the 5-limit? 50-tET but not 53-
>tET, though 53-tET is much better than 50 in the 5-limit?

>I'll give you a hint by attempting to reply to this claim:

[Monz (?):]
>>It's easy to see that the intervals of all the chords here imply
>>5-limit JI very well, which is the main reason why the piece sounds
>>so 'ordinary'.

[Paul:]
>I would claim that that's not the main reason. If you tried to play
>the piece in 22-tET, where the chords imply 5-limit JI nearly as well
>as the chords in 19-tET do, the piece will sound a lot
>less "ordinary" -- in fact it will sound rather "off". Meanwhile, if
>you tried to play it in Pythagorean tuning, where the chords imply 5-
>limit JI even less than they would in 12-tET, it would sound
>pretty "ordinary" again.

You speak of the quality of whether the scale eats the syntonic comma.
Another way to put it: are there two major seconds to represent 10:9
and 9:8, or just one? Yes?

JdL

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14981
>
> [responding to Paul Erlich's 'hints' about my webpage]
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/19tet/19samba.htm
>
> You speak of the quality of whether the scale eats the syntonic
> comma.
> Another way to put it: are there two major seconds to represent
> 10:9 and 9:8, or just one? Yes?

John, I'm quite certain that both you and Dan Stearns have put
your finger on what Paul is having us guess here. This is
precisely why I hurriedly added the comments equating 19-tET
with 1/3-comma meantone to my webpage - I realized even before
I read Paul's comment that the fact that 19-tET has a *mean*
whole-tone is why this piece translates so readily into our
'normal' 12-tET consciousness.

The main point Paul is making, which I also made on my page, is
that the 'oridinariness' of this tune results from its diatonicity.
According to Paul, 22- and 53-tET wouldn't work like this, because
22-tET doesn't give a good reflection of the diatonic scale, and
53-tET has both sizes of 'whole tone', which causes it to sound
more like 'real' JI.

Paul also did oint out one 'extraordinary' interval which occurs
melodically: the B to Bb, which is only 63 cents wide. I will
still argue that the reason this doesn't sound strange is because
it's reasonably close to the 5-limit 'chromatic semitone' of
~71 cents (ratio 24:25).

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

🔗John A. deLaubenfels <jdl@adaptune.com>

[I wrote:]
>>You speak of the quality of whether the scale eats the syntonic comma.
>>Another way to put it: are there two major seconds to represent 10:9
>>and 9:8, or just one? Yes?

[Paul E:]
>But of course. I'm now gonna order out some syntonic commas for dinner.

Really, you like'm? To me they have kind of a bitter taste. Wonder if
I could modify my software to MAXIMIZE syntonic comma shifts rather than
minimize them... as a gift to you, Paul.

JdL

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

Monz wrote,

>Paul also did oint out one 'extraordinary' interval which occurs
>melodically: the B to Bb, which is only 63 cents wide. I will
>still argue that the reason this doesn't sound strange is because
>it's reasonably close to the 5-limit 'chromatic semitone' of
>~71 cents (ratio 24:25).

And I would argue that that's nonsense. 24:25 is _way_ too complex a ratio
to perceive directly. As you gradually decrease the size of a semitone from
100 cents, it will simply sound more and more "unusual", not stopping to
sound more "right" at any point.