Precise meaning of Strict JI

[I wrote (under the subject "How useful is Vicentino's method?"):]
>>Hold on a sec: give me a definition, again, of "strict JI"? I
>>remember you correcting me when I used the term once, and my vague
>>recollection is/was that it is a very reSTRICTive term; I THOUGHT it
>>meant "honoring" commas among other things. Yes, no?

[Paul E:]
>Strict JI means that all the pitches come from a connected portion of
>the JI lattice. All melodic, as well as harmonic, intervals are JI.

So... Vicentino's method is NOT "strict JI", yes? Since melodic
intervals involve shifts. And since some chords can't be tuned (you
didn't address C,G,A in your earlier response; surely THIS deserves
to be well tuned, doesn't it? How about A,C,E,G?).

I want to get a solid grasp on the meaning of this term, and I'm still
coming up short.

Monz, would you consider adding an entry for "strict JI" to your
tuning dictionary?

JdL

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:

> So... Vicentino's method is NOT "strict JI", yes?

Right.

Since melodic
> intervals involve shifts.

In strict JI, melodic shifts often involve shifts of a comma.

> And since some chords can't be tuned (you
> didn't address C,G,A in your earlier response; surely THIS deserves
> to be well tuned, doesn't it? How about A,C,E,G?).

Right -- Vicentino only gets you triads and major seventh chords in
JI.

>
> I want to get a solid grasp on the meaning of this term, and I'm
still
> coming up short.

Strict JI means tuning all the vertical _and_ horizontal ratios in JI
(in this case, 5-limit JI).

[I wrote:]
>>So... Vicentino's method is NOT "strict JI", yes?

[Paul E:]
>Right.

[JdL:]
>>Since melodic intervals involve shifts.

[Paul:]
>In strict JI, melodic shifts often involve shifts of a comma.

[JdL:]
>>And since some chords can't be tuned (you
>>didn't address C,G,A in your earlier response; surely THIS deserves
>>to be well tuned, doesn't it? How about A,C,E,G?).

[Paul:]
>Right -- Vicentino only gets you triads and major seventh chords in JI.

[JdL:]
>>I want to get a solid grasp on the meaning of this term, and I'm still
>>coming up short.

[Paul:]
>Strict JI means tuning all the vertical _and_ horizontal ratios in JI
>(in this case, 5-limit JI).

OK, I may be closer but I'm STILL confused:

1. If Vicentino's method is not strict JI, how is it attractive to
those who advocate strict JI? What is its "pedagogical utility"?

2. Does the application of strict JI not result in tuning drift when
faced with comma pump sequences? Apparently not; you seem to be
saying that the tuning snaps back (typically with a full syntonic
comma shift) to another spot on the lattice. Am I understanding
correctly? Isn't there some quasi-recognized JI procedure that
DOES accept drift throughout the piece?

So, is the idea that there is the comma-jumping strict JI, against which
the 1/4-comma-jumping Vicentino method offers an interesting, if not
strict JI, contrast?

JdL

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "John A.
deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:

> 1. If Vicentino's method is not strict JI, how is it attractive
to
> those who advocate strict JI? What is its "pedagogical
utility"?

I think most JI advocates are attracted to JI
because of the JI chords and immediately
jump to the conclusion (perhaps spurred on
by Partch and Doty) that _all_ the pitches
must therefore be expressible as simple ratios
relative to a tonic. Most accept comma shifts
or drifts as the inevitable result of having JI
chords, and therefore justify them by
invoking the "naturalness" of JI. But they
shouldn't!
>
> 2. Does the application of strict JI not result in tuning drift
when
> faced with comma pump sequences?

It can.

Apparently not; you seem to be
> saying that the tuning snaps back (typically with a full
syntonic
> comma shift) to another spot on the lattice.

It can do that too. Both can happen in strict
JI.

> So, is the idea that there is the comma-jumping strict JI, against
which
> the 1/4-comma-jumping Vicentino method offers an interesting, if not
> strict JI, contrast?

Comma-jumping _or_ comma-drifting.
Vicentino's method eliminates _both_
anomalies. And if you're really stuck on
chords like C-G-A and C-G-D, you can add
a third meantone chain, and Vicentino's
method will still have no jumps of more than
1/2 comma.

> 2. Does the application of strict JI not result in tuning drift when
> faced with comma pump sequences? Apparently not; you seem to be
> saying that the tuning snaps back (typically with a full syntonic
> comma shift) to another spot on the lattice. Am I understanding
> correctly? Isn't there some quasi-recognized JI procedure that
> DOES accept drift throughout the piece?

Either Paul forgot to say 5_prime_limit, or we need a third term.

-Carl