Synths & Centsibility

As should be clear from the recent spate of Reaktor tuning
posts I've made, I'm a big fan of electronic music. I *like* the
blips, self-oscillating wails and crunches you can get out of both
hardware and software synthesizers. I'm even a big fan of the
mechanical esthetic lurking in techno/dance music.

Sometimes, though, you want an Oboe. Or a string section.
And I want them to play a minor third as 7:6.

There are some lovely orchestral sampler modules out there now
with a wide range of articulations, etc. to choose from. On the good
side, many of them are retunable. On the bad side, the resultion of
this retuning is generally about 1.5 cents presumably because they
want to shove the retuning information for each note into a sinlge,
signed byte.

Considering how deeply compromised some intervals in 12tet
are, how much does a little drift matter *in practice*, ignoring for
the moment the irritation this theoretical impurity causes? Does it
matter that I don't use chords with more than 4 identities sounding at
once?

--
wm,
who can't decide if he should talk himself out of the proteus2k

William Annis wrote,

>Considering how deeply compromised some intervals in 12tet
>are, how much does a little drift matter *in practice*, ignoring for
>the moment the irritation this theoretical impurity causes? Does it
>matter that I don't use chords with more than 4 identities sounding at
>once?

Can you clarify your question here?

>>Considering how deeply compromised some intervals in 12tet
>>are, how much does a little drift matter *in practice*, ignoring for
>>the moment the irritation this theoretical impurity causes? Does it
>>matter that I don't use chords with more than 4 identities sounding at
>>once?
>
>Can you clarify your question here?

I have this vague notion that the tuning imperfections will
pile up as you build larger chords. So, a simple note-against note,
say 1/1 7/6 will sound fine with a few cents of error, but that 1/1/
7/6 3/2 will get a little murkier since now you have multiple
relationships which are all slightly compromised, and finally 1/1 7/6
3/2 7/4 will go murkiest of all under the weight of all those slightly
mistuned relationships.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, and the larger chords
might reinforce the just interpretation of the chord and the simplest
(note against note) will result in the biggest perception of the
slight mistuning. I don't know at this point. Perhaps I should spend
some time noodling around to find out...

My hope is for people with experience with these less than
perfect synths and samplers to report on their experiences.

--
wm

William Annis wrote,

> I have this vague notion that the tuning imperfections will
>pile up as you build larger chords. So, a simple note-against note,
>say 1/1 7/6 will sound fine with a few cents of error, but that 1/1/
>7/6 3/2 will get a little murkier since now you have multiple
>relationships which are all slightly compromised, and finally 1/1 7/6
>3/2 7/4 will go murkiest of all under the weight of all those slightly
>mistuned relationships.

> Of course, I could be completely wrong, and the larger chords
>might reinforce the just interpretation of the chord and the simplest
>(note against note) will result in the biggest perception of the
>slight mistuning. I don't know at this point. Perhaps I should spend
>some time noodling around to find out...

> My hope is for people with experience with these less than
>perfect synths and samplers to report on their experiences.

My experience is that for chords with some otonal synergy, such as the
12:14:18:21 chord you mention, the larger chords reinforce the just
interpretation and larger tuning errors can be forgiven. This came up on the
list recently, where someone (was it you?) noted that while the wolf fifth
sounded horrible on its own, when split into a slightly flat major third on
the bottom and a slightly flat minor third on the top, it sounded OK as part
of a major triad.

However, that wouldn't work if you switched the intervals and made it a
minor triad. Then there is no otonal synergy, and the worst intervallic
mistunings are about as disturbing as they would be on their own.

>My hope is for people with experience with these less than
>perfect synths and samplers to report on their experiences.

I do have a less-than-perfect synth, but I'm basing my comments on my
exploration of temperaments, and of course the "wolf fifth" example, which
involve far larger tuning errors than those of even low-end retunable synths
(which use 512-tET).

I wrote,

>However, that wouldn't work if you switched the intervals and made it a
>minor triad. Then there is no otonal synergy, and the worst intervallic
>mistunings are about as disturbing as they would be on their own.

Well, that is true of the fifth in the minor triad, but not the other
intervals. This is because the otonal interpretation of the minor triad can
slide pretty smoothly between 10:12:15, 16:19:24, and 6:7:9 without huge
changes in the harmonic entropy -- but similar changes in the thirds of a
major triad will take you up the pretty steep walls around the 4:5:6 and be
more disturbing.

- I have a Proteus 2: Orchestra synth. I don't use it any more
because of it's bad resolution. I like the 1200 cent resolution
of my Korg 05R/W & MS200R more. It's like the difference between
a focused photo and an out of focus photo.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

I wrote:
>
> - I have a Proteus 2: Orchestra synth. I don't use it any more
> because of it's bad resolution. I like the 1200 cent resolution
> of my Korg 05R/W & MS2000R more. It's like the difference between
> a focused photo and an out of focus photo.

I'll also note that the stock patches on the Proteus sound amazing,
much better than the Korg O5R/W. So as I got into tuning I invented
a few killer patches on the O5R/W that held me over until I got
the MS2000R.

I knew there was something I forgot....

nada brahma,
db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

>From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>
>
>> - I have a Proteus 2: Orchestra synth. I don't use it any more
>> because of it's bad resolution. I like the 1200 cent resolution
>> of my Korg 05R/W & MS2000R more. It's like the difference between
>> a focused photo and an out of focus photo.
>
>I'll also note that the stock patches on the Proteus sound amazing,
>much better than the Korg O5R/W. So as I got into tuning I invented
>a few killer patches on the O5R/W that held me over until I got
>the MS2000R.

Whoo-whee! That MS2000 is an ugly thing! Teal? Both these
Korgs are synths. At this point in my life I see no reason to use
anything but Reaktor for that, and it's certainly retunable. For a
sampler, though, I seem to be stuck. It's upsetting to see that the
Proteus 2 has the same tuning resolution of the Virtuoso, 1.56 cents.

So, the question now is "how *much* out of focus."

--
wm

"William S. Annis" wrote:
>
> >From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>
> >
> >> - I have a Proteus 2: Orchestra synth. I don't use it any more
> >> because of it's bad resolution. I like the 1200 cent resolution
> >> of my Korg 05R/W & MS2000R more. It's like the difference between
> >> a focused photo and an out of focus photo.
> >
> >I'll also note that the stock patches on the Proteus sound amazing,
> >much better than the Korg O5R/W. So as I got into tuning I invented
> >a few killer patches on the O5R/W that held me over until I got
> >the MS2000R.
>
> Whoo-whee! That MS2000 is an ugly thing! Teal?

Too bad it doesn't look like one of those Waldorfs! ;)
Seriously though, the way a synth looks doesn't really matter to me.

> Both these
> Korgs are synths. At this point in my life I see no reason to use
> anything but Reaktor for that, and it's certainly retunable.

Someone gave me a copy of Reaktor to play with and I couldn't get the
tuning
feature to work. I also couldn't get your tuned patches to load properly
becase this copy is a bootleg version. You mentioned that Reaktor
has +/50 cents tuning on a note - not enough for me! The MS2000R has
*/- 100 cent tuning, so some of my tunings won't work of Reaktor.
Plus, I can reach over and grab the portamento
knob - a software synth isn't as aceessable for me.

> For a
> sampler, though, I seem to be stuck. It's upsetting to see that the
> Proteus 2 has the same tuning resolution of the Virtuoso, 1.56 cents.

It seems like going with a sampler would be the best way for you to go.

db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

"William S. Annis" wrote:

> So, the question now is "how *much* out of focus."

It's noticeable enough to me. I wouldn't use the Proteus
for long sustained tones. I know Jon Catler used it on
one of his albums, he didn't seem to think this was a problem.

Guitar strings go through so many changes after they're plucked
they're only really in tune for part of the event.

db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Concerning synths and tuning. has anyone on the list ever used or
is familiar with a Kurzweill K2500 ?

Buddhi

>
> >From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>
> >
> >> - I have a Proteus 2: Orchestra synth. I don't use it any more
> >> because of it's bad resolution. I like the 1200 cent resolution
> >> of my Korg 05R/W & MS2000R more. It's like the difference between
> >> a focused photo and an out of focus photo.
> >
> >I'll also note that the stock patches on the Proteus sound amazing,
> >much better than the Korg O5R/W. So as I got into tuning I invented
> >a few killer patches on the O5R/W that held me over until I got
> >the MS2000R.
>
> Whoo-whee! That MS2000 is an ugly thing! Teal? Both these
>Korgs are synths. At this point in my life I see no reason to use
>anything but Reaktor for that, and it's certainly retunable. For a
>sampler, though, I seem to be stuck. It's upsetting to see that the
>Proteus 2 has the same tuning resolution of the Virtuoso, 1.56 cents.
>
> So, the question now is "how *much* out of focus."
>
>--
>wm
>
>
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>

> > >From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...>
> > >
> > >> - I have a Proteus 2: Orchestra synth. I don't use it any more
> > >> because of it's bad resolution. I like the 1200 cent
resolution
> > >> of my Korg 05R/W & MS2000R more. It's like the difference

David, can you store global tuning tables on the MS2000R? There are
some comments about microtunabilty in the Keyboard review, but they
are quite vague.

> Too bad it doesn't look like one of those Waldorfs! ;)
> Seriously though, the way a synth looks doesn't really matter to me.

I have been told that my main microtunable electronic instrument, the
Roland Handsonic, looks like a spaceship. :) No global tuning
tables, but I can assign up to 15 sounds on the main playing surface
to a "pad set" and tune each of the sounds with 1 cent resolution.

Paolo

>> Whoo-whee! That MS2000 is an ugly thing! Teal?
>
>Too bad it doesn't look like one of those Waldorfs! ;)

Those yellow and maroon things? I like their noises,
certainly.

>Seriously though, the way a synth looks doesn't really matter to me.

It normally doesn't to me either. My boss insists on using
ergonomic colors for his computer work, and the result is horrid. He
maintains that I have a color obsession and that I'm too sensitive to
them. :)

>> Both these
>> Korgs are synths. At this point in my life I see no reason to use
>> anything but Reaktor for that, and it's certainly retunable.
>
>Someone gave me a copy of Reaktor to play with and I couldn't get the
>tuning
>feature to work. I also couldn't get your tuned patches to load properly
>becase this copy is a bootleg version.

*tsk tsk*

I forget... will the demo load other ensembles? I suspect the
new one will not. Drat.

> You mentioned that Reaktor
>has +/50 cents tuning on a note - not enough for me!

No, no! The Microtune12 macro has a +/- 50 cents tuning. You
are certainly free to fix the macro for greater range if you wish,
which I have done in the past. The problem -- one hardware synths
have all the time, I suspect -- is that the default sliders and knobs
are represented by an unsigned byte (*why* this should be is another
question). So, you get 127 discrete steps, you choose the end points
and Reaktor interpolates. If you need greater granularity you have to
engage in some wiring trickiness.

>Plus, I can reach over and grab the portamento
>knob - a software synth isn't as aceessable for me.

Ah. You could get a Phatboy... just a box with knobs spewing
MIDI data. There is a little button on the Reaktor main pannel that
looks like a MIDI socket with a 'L' in it. It means "learn MIDI."
Choose any Reaktor slider, knob, etc, smack 'L' then start spinning a
knob... Then Reaktor will use that knob for that control. This is a
very useful feature.

Doepfer makes this wonderful wall of 64 knobs which I covet,
though I don't really need that many.

>> For a
>> sampler, though, I seem to be stuck. It's upsetting to see that the
>> Proteus 2 has the same tuning resolution of the Virtuoso, 1.56 cents.
>
>It seems like going with a sampler would be the best way for you to go.

I just wish I could get my hands on one to fight with.

--
wm

phv40@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > >From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...>
> > > >
> > > >> - I have a Proteus 2: Orchestra synth. I don't use it any more
> > > >> because of it's bad resolution. I like the 1200 cent
> resolution
> > > >> of my Korg 05R/W & MS2000R more. It's like the difference
>
> David, can you store global tuning tables on the MS2000R? There are
> some comments about microtunabilty in the Keyboard review, but they
> are quite vague.

Besides 12tet, there are 8 presets: pure major, pure minor, Arabic,
Pythagorean, Werkmeister, Kirnberger, Selendro & Pelog. there is also
a user defined tuning for a one octave scale - +/- 100 cents for each
note. You set the tuning in global mode but set the tuning in each
patch.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

"William S. Annis" wrote:

> >> Both these
> >> Korgs are synths. At this point in my life I see no reason to use
> >> anything but Reaktor for that, and it's certainly retunable.
> >
> >Someone gave me a copy of Reaktor to play with and I couldn't get the
> >tuning
> >feature to work. I also couldn't get your tuned patches to load properly
> >becase this copy is a bootleg version.
>
> *tsk tsk*

What ever. It's useless to me.

>
> I forget... will the demo load other ensembles? I suspect the
> new one will not. Drat.

Just the stock ensembles. And then it generally stops working after
about
a half hour.

> > You mentioned that Reaktor
> >has +/50 cents tuning on a note - not enough for me!
>
> No, no! The Microtune12 macro has a +/- 50 cents tuning. You
> are certainly free to fix the macro for greater range if you wish,
> which I have done in the past.

I don't think you were that specific when we discussed this on this list
a few weeks ago.

Enjoy yer self!

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
> > David, can you store global tuning tables on the MS2000R? There
are
> > some comments about microtunabilty in the Keyboard review, but
they
> > are quite vague.
>
> Besides 12tet, there are 8 presets: pure major, pure minor, Arabic,
> Pythagorean, Werkmeister, Kirnberger, Selendro & Pelog. there is
also
> a user defined tuning for a one octave scale - +/- 100 cents for
each
> note. You set the tuning in global mode but set the tuning in each
> patch.

You mean, you have one user-defined global tuning, but on a per-patch
basis, you can choose between the 8 preset tunings and your one user-
defined tuning. Is this correct?

I've become a lot more interested in this unit when I saw that the
list price is less than $1000 for the keyboard version. That's only
a little bit more than the Emu modules - giving up a lot of polyphony
(a non-issue for a realtime looper like me) but gaining better tuning
resolution. The sound architecture appears to be more interesting as
well.

Thanks,
Paolo

phv40@hotmail.com wrote:

> You mean, you have one user-defined global tuning, but on a per-patch
> basis, you can choose between the 8 preset tunings and your one user-
> defined tuning. Is this correct?

Right.

> I've become a lot more interested in this unit when I saw that the
> list price is less than $1000 for the keyboard version. That's only
> a little bit more than the Emu modules - giving up a lot of polyphony
> (a non-issue for a realtime looper like me) but gaining better tuning
> resolution. The sound architecture appears to be more interesting as
> well.

Right. It's only 4 voice but in JI, for me - I don't need more.
Sometimes the a voice cuts out, I've learded to play around that.
As you know I'm also a looper.

db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
> Right. It's only 4 voice but in JI, for me - I don't need more.
> Sometimes the a voice cuts out, I've learded to play around that.
> As you know I'm also a looper.
>
> db

I hope its not too late for me to make arrangements to attend
Microthon 2000.

I played around with a Korg MS2000 this weekend and I have to admit
it impressed me as much as the Z1, Korg's 100% physical modeling
synth.

Paolo

phv40@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
> > Right. It's only 4 voice but in JI, for me - I don't need more.
> > Sometimes the a voice cuts out, I've learded to play around that.
> > As you know I'm also a looper.
> >
> > db
>
> I hope its not too late for me to make arrangements to attend
> Microthon 2000.

Just show up the day of the show.

> I played around with a Korg MS2000 this weekend and I have to admit
> it impressed me as much as the Z1, Korg's 100% physical modeling
> synth.

I did my second show with it tonight and had a few bugs. It will
be a week or two before I find out if the machine is on the fritz
or maybe I just screwed up.

db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm