If money weren't an issue...

Another "amateur question": Were any other mechanized acoustic
contraptions such as the player piano ever achieved?

I've often heard the sound of "Conlon Nancarrow" for mechanized wood
and wire, flesh and blood, player guitars, mechanized acoustic chamber
ensembles, and even orchestras ricocheting around in my head - and
what a sound it is I tell you!

If money weren't an issue how far could this idea be taken?

just wondering,

--Dan Stearns

Trimpin

Music box! Calliope! Orchestrion! Carillon! Theremin-playing automata!
Captured by Robots! Lego Mindstorm?

Mechanical Music Digest is a list for owners, and professionals who work
on player pianos and their more esoteric relatives:
<http://mmd.foxtail.com/>

and here's a list of avant-garde music rolls:
<http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199707/1997.07.03.05.html>

Ouf - I should be working on a player right now...

Clark

The regular player piano was *extremely* popular in homes, and only the rise
of the phonograph and radio replaced it. There was also a lesser-known
recording piano, which captured much more of the nuances of a piano
performance than the standard player piano. There are quite a few recordings
of famous pianists captured with this device; I believe you can find CDs of
these if you're interested.

Then there was Cahill's Telharmonium. This one, if my memory is correct, was
proposed in 1895. The Telharmonium was a room full of rotating tone-wheel
electronic sound generators very much like the tone wheels in the Hammond
Organ. In fact, the Hammond folks had to deal with patent issues because
Cahill patented the Telharmonium.

Cahill's plan was to distribute the music from the Telharmonium over
telephone lines to businesses, like Muzak :-). This never happened, and I've
forgotten the details of the story, but Cahill is credited with the
"invention" of additive sound synthesis in a number of references. I'm sure
a web search for Cahill and Telharmonium will turn up some of this history.
--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: D.Stearns [mailto:STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET]
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 1:44 PM
> To: tuning@egroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] If money weren't an issue...
>
>
> Another "amateur question": Were any other mechanized acoustic
> contraptions such as the player piano ever achieved?
>
> I've often heard the sound of "Conlon Nancarrow" for mechanized wood
> and wire, flesh and blood, player guitars, mechanized acoustic chamber
> ensembles, and even orchestras ricocheting around in my head - and
> what a sound it is I tell you!
>
> If money weren't an issue how far could this idea be taken?

http://www.io.com/~jcastle/telharmo.html

--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com

News Flash: Cahill was a microtonalist!!!!

http://list.gatech.edu/archives/grusin-net/old/0143.html

"It is a sad tale, involving the construction of
massive alternator tone wheels that tantalizingly predated
amplification technology; a business marriage with the New
York Telephone Company that soured when Telharmonic Music
proved to interfere with phone service (note: according to
another source, the Telharmonium's signal was too much for
the old switching systems, and tended to blow them out);
****Thaddeus Cahill's fixed ideas about Just Intonation, and
the problems his 36-note-per-octave keyboard caused
Telharmonium performers****; Lee DeForest's early radio
transmissions of the Telharmonium, and Cahill's inability
to perceive the implications; an ill-fated second season
at Telharmonic Hall, that was exacerbated by the financial
panic of 1907; the deterioration of the Telharmonium into
a musical freak show, and the failure of the licensee
companies in 1908; and an abortive comeback in 1911 that
struggled all the way into 1918."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Edward Borasky [mailto:znmeb@teleport.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 11:53 AM
> To: tuning@egroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] The Telharmonium
>
>
> http://www.io.com/~jcastle/telharmo.html
>
> --
> M. Edward Borasky
> mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
> http://www.borasky-research.com
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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>
>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14141
>
> Another "amateur question": Were any other mechanized acoustic
> contraptions such as the player piano ever achieved?

Hi Dan.

I'm writing this from the public library and don't have my
references handy, so perhaps later I can be more accurate.
I hope I'm not butchering the info too badly right now...

Thaddeus Cahill, around 1906, invented an electronic mechanical
instrument which IIRC was called either the Panharmonicon or
the Telharmonicon... or perhaps he built one of each. It was
intended to be able to perform orchestral works by itself.
I believe it was mentioned by Busoni in his _Sketch of a New
Aesthetic of Music_.

Around this same time, the Welte-Mignon company of Vienna invented
a player piano mechanism that had an elaborate contraption allowing
the reproduction of dynamics and other subtle elements of phrasing.
Mahler recorded himself playing a few of his pieces on it in 1905,
and it's been released on CD; the booklet gives a pretty good
description of the technology.

Also, about a century earlier, Maelzel (the guy who invented
the metronome) invented a similar instrument. Maelzel was a
friend of Beethoven, and commissioned the latter to write what
(believe it or not) turned out to be the most successful of
all his pieces during his lifetime, 'Wellington's Victory'
(AKA 'The Battle Symphony'). Some info about this is at:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/schoenberg/Vienna1905.htm

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

Dan,

Do a search on "Mechanical music digest" and you will find the archives of a
list I subscribe to. There are many different midi-fied mechanical
automatic instruments. Steel drum ensembles, marimbas (search "mallet
kat"), guitars, you name it. For about $400 you can get the converter
devise to convert voltage on to midi and vise versa. That is how I play to
midi-fy the carillon. I think Steel drum midi ensembles run into the low 5
digits. Check out http://www.videopete.com/midi/ and
http://www.videopete.com/nick/ and especcially http://www.ragtimewest.com/.
I my wildest dreams, I would like to create a midified orchestra of
microtonal mechanical instruments, based around the carillon of course.

Darren

>>Another "amateur question": Were any other mechanized acoustic
>>contraptions such as the player piano ever achieved?
>>
>>I've often heard the sound of "Conlon Nancarrow" for mechanized wood
>>and wire, flesh and blood, player guitars, mechanized acoustic chamber
>>ensembles, and even orchestras ricocheting around in my head - and
>>what a sound it is I tell you!
>>
>>If money weren't an issue how far could this idea be taken?
>>
>>
>>just wondering,
>>
>>--Dan Stearns
>>
>>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14141

> Another "amateur question": Were any other mechanized acoustic
> contraptions such as the player piano ever achieved?
>
> I've often heard the sound of "Conlon Nancarrow" for mechanized wood
> and wire, flesh and blood, player guitars, mechanized acoustic
chamber
> ensembles, and even orchestras ricocheting around in my head - and
> what a sound it is I tell you!
>
> If money weren't an issue how far could this idea be taken?
>
>
> just wondering,
>
> --Dan Stearns

You know, Dan... there were lots of such things around the turn of
the century... maybe it was even a bit later. I remember as a child
going to a "tourist site" in New Hampshire and seeing these amazing
mechanical contraptions, built with player piano components, but also
including various kinds of drums and, if I recall, woodwind objects
which were activated by a bellows. There are still reminants of
these contraptions around. In Central Park there is a carousel which
has one of them as the music generator. However, it looks like part
ofit is not working... at least the way it used to. Today, of
course, there is the composers and instrument maker Trimpkin
(spelling?)[I can't find a web site] who is making these crazy sound
sculptures, some of which cover entire walls, out of various
instruments to computer control.

Perhaps someone else on the list knows more about these things.
Personally, I love to watch/hear them...
________ ___ __ _ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Patrick Grant <pg@s...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14143

> Trimpin

Thanks, Patrick... Sorry, I just had his name spelled wrong... Here
is one of many web sites:

http://www.otherminds.org/html/Trimpin.html

_______ ___ __ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "M. Edward Borasky" <znmeb@t...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14145

> Then there was Cahill's Telharmonium.

Our composer friend Reynold Weidennaar did the "definitive" video on
Cahill's Telharmonium.

Here's one link:

http://www.mediaalliance.org/membersworks/Weidenaar/weidenaar.html

________ ___ __ __
Joseph Pehrson

I just ordered Weidennaar's book on the Telharmonium, mostly because it's a
fascinating story. Since Weidennaar is a composer, perhaps he can clue us in
on the references to Just Intonation and a 36-note scale that I found on one
of the Telharmonium web sites and posted here yesterday.

I discovered Cahill when I was first getting into computer music in 1965. As
I recall, the Hammond Organ folks either did not know of or deliberately
ignored his patents and there were some legal issues as a result. Does
anyone know more about this? BTW, if any of you are interested in such
things, there is code in "The CSound Book" to emulate Hammond organs and
Leslie rotating speakers :-).

Speaking of electronic music pioneers, I just got a CD of Hugh LeCaine's
work. It turns out that LeCaine is now considered the inventor of the
voltage-controlled electronic synthesizer, predating the RCA synthesizer by
a few years and making playable instruments to boot. :-) I got this (and a
bunch of other stuff) from http://www.cdemusic.org/. They have quite a few
hard-to-find items, like Trevor Wishart's "Audible Design", which I haven't
been able to find anywhere else. Wishart, to close one of the open loops on
the list, used birdcalls in a number of his works. They also have Colon
Nancarrow CDs and some articles about player pianos.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Pehrson [mailto:josephpehrson@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 6:35 AM
> To: tuning@egroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: If money weren't an issue...
>
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, "M. Edward Borasky" <znmeb@t...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/14145
>
>
> > Then there was Cahill's Telharmonium.
>
> Our composer friend Reynold Weidennaar did the "definitive" video on
> Cahill's Telharmonium.
>

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "M. Edward Borasky" <znmeb@t...> wrote:
> I just ordered Weidennaar's book on the Telharmonium, mostly
because
it's a fascinating story. Since Weidennaar is a composer, perhaps he
can clue us in on the references to Just Intonation and a 36-note
scale that I found on one of the Telharmonium web sites and posted
here yesterday.

Ren is a very friendly and helpful guy, and I am certain will be able
to help with this. Contact him directly, and mention my name, if
you'd like...

________ ___ __ _ _
Joseph Pehrson

If it isn't in the book, I will :-). On a lighter note, I'm finally getting
to listen to some of the stuff on the Tuning Punks page. Interesting ...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Pehrson [mailto:josephpehrson@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:58 PM
> To: tuning@egroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Miscellany: Telharmonium, Hammond Organs, Hugh
> LeCaine, Trevor Wishart, Colon Nancarrow, Player Pianos
>
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, "M. Edward Borasky" <znmeb@t...> wrote:
> > I just ordered Weidennaar's book on the Telharmonium, mostly
> because
> it's a fascinating story. Since Weidennaar is a composer, perhaps he
> can clue us in on the references to Just Intonation and a 36-note
> scale that I found on one of the Telharmonium web sites and posted
> here yesterday.
>
> Ren is a very friendly and helpful guy, and I am certain will be able
> to help with this. Contact him directly, and mention my name, if
> you'd like...
>
> ________ ___ __ _ _
> Joseph Pehrson
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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>
>
>