octave stretch web page

Everyone, please read

http://www.mmk.ei.tum.de/persons/ter/top/octstretch.html

It touches on many pertinent issues.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13654

> Everyone, please read
>
> http://www.mmk.ei.tum.de/persons/ter/top/octstretch.html
>
> It touches on many pertinent issues.

With simultaneous periodic tones it is easy to adjust them very
accurately to a 2:1 frequency ratio just "by ear":
When the frequencies differ ever so slightly from that ratio, beats
are heard. Accurate tuning to 2:1 thus is
merely a matter of making the beats as slow as possible, i.e., by
adjusting either of the two frequencies
appropriately. However, that kind of "octave adjustment" is in no
respect dependent on the perception of pitch;
little or nothing can be learned from it about the pitch interval
that corresponds to octave-equivalent tones. With
respect to music it is most interesting to know precisely the width
of the pitch interval pertinent to auditory
octave equivalence.

Hmmm. I'm kinda wondering if this "stretch" perception really means
much of anything... Wasn't it Alexander Ellis who said that the only
POSSIBLE way to tune a piano accurately was by the "beating"
method... not by any other kind of "auditory" experience??

My experience, recently, in trying to tune my piano again was
similar. If it weren't for BEATS... I wouldn't be anyplace. No
accuracy... nothing to go on. In fact, I tried to use the Korg MT
1200 (I think that't the number... the xenharmonic one... Johnny
Reinhard has it right now) and it was a dismal failure, as far as
piano tuning was concerned.

I could hardly MATCH the tones, the timbres were so different! I can
see why piano tuners used the "beating" method for so many years...

Frankly, being on this tuning list has made me much more INSECURE of
my own tuning perception! EVERYTHING now seems out of tune. This
would be a problem, except for the fact that I love such unsettling
angst. Seriously, though, the REFINEMENT of pitch perception seems
to lead to MORE UNCERTAINTY and perceptual questioning...

Isn't "beating" the only "real" perceptual straw we have to grab on???
____________ ____ __ __
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> My experience, recently, in trying to tune my piano again was
> similar. If it weren't for BEATS... I wouldn't be anyplace. No
> accuracy... nothing to go on. In fact, I tried to use the Korg MT
> 1200 (I think that't the number... the xenharmonic one... Johnny
> Reinhard has it right now) and it was a dismal failure, as far as
> piano tuning was concerned.

That's it. Very handy and reasonabley priced. I
wouldn't use it on an acoustic piano. Of course
I wouldn't even try to tune one of those beasts!

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Joseph --

I can't agree with you. When I set my synth to a sine wave timbre, the
octaves sound flat to me, particularly in the extreme bass and treble. This
is as real as the ground I walk on.

As for tuning a piano, any piano tuner will tell you that because of the
inharmonicity of the piano, tuning a string to a harmonic sound or to a
different-pitched piano string will give you different results depending on
which harmonic you're tuning. That's what you were up against. Yes, you need
to use beating to _accurately_ tune a piano so that it will play in all
keys. But tuning a melodic octave by ear, you can still do so with enough
accuracy to notice that it's not a 2:1 ratio.

-- Paul

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13667

> Joseph --
>
> I can't agree with you. When I set my synth to a sine wave timbre,
the octaves sound flat to me, particularly in the extreme bass and
treble. This is as real as the ground I walk on.
>
> As for tuning a piano, any piano tuner will tell you that because
of the inharmonicity of the piano, tuning a string to a harmonic sound
or to a different-pitched piano string will give you different
results depending on which harmonic you're tuning. That's what you
were up against. Yes, you need to use beating to _accurately_ tune a
piano so that it will play in all keys.

OK. So maybe that's what I'm reacting to! I actually "studied"
piano tuning and building in college, and worked for some piano
tuners sporadically over the years. In fact, it's one of the FEW
practical courses I *TOOK* at college. (Practical meaning, of
course, that you could run right immediately into the street and make
money with it!!)

But tuning a melodic octave by ear, you can still do so with
enough accuracy to notice that it's not a 2:1 ratio.
>
> -- Paul

I'll leave the jury out on the synth example... I'm obviously
"boggled' by my piano tuning experiences...
_____________ ____ __ _
Joseph Pehrson