RE: [tuning] Re: perceived consonance, and Kolinski's stretch tun ing

David Beardsley wrote,

>I think Stretch tunings work on pianos (strings like
>metal bars because of tension) but not an instrument
>like the Stick, Bass or Guitar.

The low strings of a Stick, bass or guitar have inharmonic partials much
like a piano, due to the stiffness of the thick strings used. If you play a
note high on the fretboard on the low E string of a Strat, you'll hear quite
a bit of inharmonicity, which causes beating when distortion is used (as
combination tones between the partials beat against one another).

Paolo wrote,

>What this has got me wondering now is what if my buddy's Stick was
>31t-ET instead of 12t-ET? Would he still be compelled to attempt
>stretch-tuning on it?

I'm sure he would -- just think about the octaves. And didn't you say he
found the 12-tET major thirds to be flat? Well, 31-tET major thirds are even
flatter!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> David Beardsley wrote,
>
> >I think Stretch tunings work on pianos (strings like
> >metal bars because of tension) but not an instrument
> >like the Stick, Bass or Guitar.
>
> The low strings of a Stick, bass or guitar have inharmonic partials much
> like a piano, due to the stiffness of the thick strings used. If you play a
> note high on the fretboard on the low E string of a Strat,

Is that Strat in Just Intonation or 12tet? ;)
If it was in 12tet, of course there would be inharmonicity!

> you'll hear quite
> a bit of inharmonicity, which causes beating when distortion is used (as
> combination tones between the partials beat against one another).

OK. Heavy strings cause inharmonicity. But a guitar
has a heck of a lot less tension tension than
a piano.

db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

I wrote,

>> The low strings of a Stick, bass or guitar have inharmonic partials much
>> like a piano, due to the stiffness of the thick strings used. If you play
a
>> note high on the fretboard on the low E string of a Strat,

>Is that Strat in Just Intonation or 12tet? ;)
>If it was in 12tet, of course there would be inharmonicity!

We're talking about a single note. The placement of the frets or tuning of
the other strings is irrelevant to the partials of that one note.

>OK. Heavy strings cause inharmonicity.

Essentially, yes.

>But a guitar
>has a heck of a lot less tension tension than
>a piano.

Technically, it's stiffness, rather than tension, which causes
inharmonicity. When playing a high note on a thick metal guitar string, you
have a lot of stiffness to contend with, since the thickness of the strings
is significant compare with the vibrating length of the string. Meanwhile,
if you play, say, the first fret on the highest string, the inharmonicity
will be minimal since the thickness is very small compared to the vibrating
length. On a piano, the thickest strings are also the longest ones, so the
inharmonicity is closer to constant than on a guitar.

Ever hear a Martin with heavy-guage strings where the low notes sound like a
piano? That's the inharmonicity.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> I wrote,
>OK. Heavy strings cause inharmonicity.
>
> Essentially, yes.
>
> >But a guitar
> >has a heck of a lot less tension tension than
> >a piano.
>
> Technically, it's stiffness, rather than tension, which causes
> inharmonicity.

So what's the difference Paul? Heavier strings tuned
to the same pitch as lighter strings are going to
be stiffer AND have more tension.

Been at this guitar thing 27 years man...I think
tension and stiffnesss are the SAME THING!!!

> Ever hear a Martin with heavy-guage strings where the low notes sound like a
> piano? That's the inharmonicity.

OK. My metal bodied Dobro clone, a Johnson has this problem.
I went for heavier strings to beef up the tone
and the bass strings are so heavy there is no tone.

So I think its all down to string size. Lighter gauge
string have no tone, the heavier strings do but
have inharmonicity.

So whats your solution to inharmonicity on the
guitar? Novak seems have a solution but I haven't
heard one yet.

the world is sound,
db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

David wrote,

>So what's the difference Paul? Heavier strings tuned
>to the same pitch as lighter strings are going to
>be stiffer AND have more tension.

True, but the two don't always vary together. It depends what you hold
constant. If you increase the length, you'll need a higher tension to get
the same pitch out of a given string, but you'll have less stiffness.

>Been at this guitar thing 27 years man...I think
>tension and stiffnesss are the SAME THING!!!

Similar, but not quite the same. See
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~dtl/36hd_pno.html for a complete description of how
the varying parameters of tension, stiffness, etc. are compromised in the
engineering of the piano. There's a lot more to the design of the piano than
you might have thought!

We had a detailed discussion about stiffness and inharmonicity here about
two or three years ago, maybe back on the Mills server. Can anyone find it?

>So whats your solution to inharmonicity on the
>guitar? Novak seems have a solution but I haven't
>heard one yet.

Ah yes, the Novak design has longer bass strings making for lower stiffness
(despite higher tension) and thus less inharmonicity. Charlie Hunter plays
an eight-string Novak and sounds like a bass player and guitar player at
once -- and the bass sound is terrific!

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> Paolo wrote,
>
> >What this has got me wondering now is what if my buddy's Stick was
> >31t-ET instead of 12t-ET? Would he still be compelled to attempt
> >stretch-tuning on it?
>
> I'm sure he would -- just think about the octaves. And didn't you
say he
> found the 12-tET major thirds to be flat? Well, 31-tET major thirds
are even
> flatter!

I hope Neil "Hstick" (or his friend John Starrett) can find the time
to offer thoughts on this as Hstick plays 19t-ET and 31t-ET guitars.

Paolo

Paolo wrote,

>I hope Neil "Hstick" (or his friend John Starrett) can find the time
>to offer thoughts on this as Hstick plays 19t-ET and 31t-ET guitars.

I personally think that 19-tET and 31-tET major thirds, and the near-just
major thirds on my 22-tET guitar, are more consonant than 12-tET or any
sharper major thirds.