Alison's post

Superb comments on Indian music, chakras, and the deeper meanings of
music...many things come to mind from this post. First, why are these
sorts of correspondences rarely, if ever, mentioned in association with
music from the European tradition? It is a fact that everything,
absolutely everything, in the Universe is composed of differing
frequencies of vibrations...at it's deepest level, there actually is no
such thing as solid matter (of course, a great unexplainable property of
the Universe is exactly that...how did energy become solid?). And what
sort of smaller units of "whatever" is energy itself made of? This is
vitally important to music and it's deeper purpose because, since we are
indeed beings of vibration, it follows that sound, being a powerful,
primal component of the Creation itself, can and does affect us on many
levels, including those levels that bypass our everyday levels of
consciousness.
Needless to say, this is why the subject of tunings is so
significant to a deeper understanding of the effects music can
have...tuning systems vibrate at different frequencies, and thus will
have varying effects on the Universal structure, including humans and
all living beings. For me, this is getting right to the heart of what I
am really interested in exploring, and I thank Alison for the post. Why,
indeed, is a morning raga a morning raga? Of course, as I mentioned,
these sorts of ideas are seldom mentioned by "Western" musicians, and
that's a frustrating thing for me. But, each time a musician plays
music, vibrations are created, going out into the Universe, and
affecting all they touch in some form or other. Ornette Coleman touched
on this once, in a story on his life...he referred to the rhythm and
blues he played in his formative years in Ft. Worth as "music that made
my people want to kill each other" (I'm paraphrasing, but it was close).
Why, then, did this sort of music create such feelings in people? Was it
the 12 tone scale, the feeling in the music, the environment it was
played in? Something else?
Is the tuning the most important component of a piece? What about
the spirit of the player, and his intent when playing? I think all of
these factor in somehow, and it's a fascinating study...one which may
never produce a "scientific", definitive answer.
Since the 12 tone eq tempered scale is way out of tune with the overtone
series, does music produced in this system send out "bad vibes," so to
speak, a dissonance that is harmful, ultimately? Of course, other
systems are not "in tune," either...are they somehow harmful? I have
seen various people mention, over the years, that just intonation is a
natural tuning...does this mean music in this system is inherently
beneficial? Or, again, is the intent, the passion, of the player, a
significant part of the mix as well?
Alison mentioned that doing and experiencing were very important to
an understanding of certain concepts...thus, if one does not do them,
they will never experience the possible effects of the concept in
question. Paramahansa Yogananda talked about listening for sounds in the
inner ear as a powerful form of meditation, one that can lead one to
hearing/feeling the primal, all encompassing "OM" sound/vibration.
Problem is, if one does not DO the technique, chances are it will never
happen for them...if it never happens, does that mean it doesn't exist?
It's great to see such a post as Alison's, and I hope that others
will become interested in this sort of thread...tunings are a
fascinating study, and can have effects which are deep and far
reaching...the reason I am into this is to use what knowledge I can pick
up to help me create something meaningful and lasting with my music. A
knowledge of the deeper meanings of tuning, along with
compositional/technical skills to apply the tuning expertise, will
assure us of much meaningful music in the years to come...it's an
awesome prospect...Hstick

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Neil Haverstick <STICK@U...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13360

>Superb comments on Indian music, chakras, and the deeper meanings
of music...many things come to mind from this post.

At this point, some list(en)ers might find the music of my Internet
friend Sandhya Sanjana interesting. The stuff on this page is a
little "pop..." She does CLASSICAL Indian singing too. But, I know
you guys aren't "offended" by a little "pop" music every once
in a while <smiley thing here>.

http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/81/joseph_pehrson_modern_mix2.html

Try "Dance for Life" by Sandhya Sanjana... or at least that's what
*I* am HEARING on the list at this moment...
_________ ____ ___ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

Neil Haverstick wrote:

> Superb comments on Indian music, chakras, and the deeper meanings of
> music...many things come to mind from this post. First, why are these
> sorts of correspondences rarely, if ever, mentioned in association with
> music from the European tradition? [snip]
> these sorts of ideas are seldom mentioned by "Western" musicians, and
> that's a frustrating thing for me.

The answer is not too terribly elusive, really. Western thought and Eastern/Hindu thought
developed in different directions due to a different set of assumptions about the origin and
nature of the cosmos: in a word, creation by a Person or Persons. A brief overview of the
ideas proposed by the ancient Greek philosophers, the early Christian theologians, and the
Protestant Reformers would quickly make it clear why Western classical musicians held a view of
music that prohibited making Hindu style direct correspondences between physical vibrations and
mystical meanings. Don't forget, virtually all medieval and Renaissance composers were Roman
Catholic; many Baroque, Classical, and early Romantic composers thought in the Reformed
tradition. Papa Bach himself was a deeply devoted Lutheran back in the days when Lutherans
were more conservative than today's typical "far right" Christians. Note, though, that their
perspective didn't prevent them from studying tuning, nor from making music which has been
found meaningful transculturally.

> Since the 12 tone eq tempered scale is way out of tune with the overtone
> series, does music produced in this system send out "bad vibes," so to
> speak, a dissonance that is harmful, ultimately?

It's not that far off, really (for a low number equal temperament). See the chart on various
ET's degree of deviation from JI in terms of Harmonic Entropy, mentioned the other day:
http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/DefectsETs.htm
If it were way out, it wouldn't likely have become a standard way of approximating 5-limit
harmonic progressions for billions of people over more than a century. It's a lot further off
than 31 or 41, sure, but it's also a lot more manageable.

> I have
> seen various people mention, over the years, that just intonation is a
> natural tuning...does this mean music in this system is inherently
> beneficial?

JI is about as natural as a tree shaped like a perfect triangle, or a perfectly spherical
rock. That doesn't mean it's not a good basis for a tuning system. If it is inherently good,
and if the most generally beneficial non-JI tunings are those that approximate JI well, that
fact might point to something (or Someone) which transcends nature and which is absolutely
good. Of course, any such conclusion, taken alone, would depend on how you define and measure
"beneficial."

> tunings are a
> fascinating study, and can have effects which are deep and far
> reaching...the reason I am into this is to use what knowledge I can pick
> up to help me create something meaningful and lasting with my music.

Me too! I agree. I think that's a very good reason for the study of tuning. In fact, the
search for the uses of various tunings cannot be separated from the search for meaning (in the
most general sense) for me.

> A knowledge of the deeper meanings of tuning, along with
> compositional/technical skills to apply the tuning expertise, will
> assure us of much meaningful music in the years to come...it's an
> awesome prospect...Hstick

Indeed! Thanks for a thought provoking and inspiring post!

--
David J. Finnamore
Nashville, TN, USA
http://members.xoom.com/dfinn.1
--

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Neil Haverstick <STICK@U...> wrote:
>each time a musician plays music, vibrations are
>created, going out into the Universe, and
>affecting all they touch in some form or other.

Some music resonates more easily with the feelings.
This "emotional pull" might depend on personal
growth and state of mind. This "pull", this
tendency is felt when you hear a piece of music,
and then you feel like you just "have to" stop
what you are doing, to listen and let the
feelings take their place.

There is a similar effect with "xeno-"intervals,
when you are just starting to understand some
new identities on the ladder of primes. At this
point, their emotion feels very strong, and you just
have to listen again and again because feels good.

For exemple, when you accept 5-limit intervals, not as
out-of-tune imitations of 3-limit (or 12TET), but as
new identities, they start to feel "right". When you
let go of 12TET as your frame of reference, 5-limit
music starts to feel sweet. If 3-limit is solid like
an oak tree, 5-limit moves like a river.

It is also possible to resist the emotional pull
of a performance and "fly above" it, instead of
"going with the flow." But then, this takes a
certain degree of concentration and makes other
activities difficult, because you are still
focusing on the (dual/complement of the) emotions
in the music.

-Kami

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kami Rousseau [mailto:kamikulture@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 9:10 AM
> To: tuning@egroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Emotions
>
> Some music resonates more easily with the feelings.
> This "emotional pull" might depend on personal
> growth and state of mind. This "pull", this
> tendency is felt when you hear a piece of music,
> and then you feel like you just "have to" stop
> what you are doing, to listen and let the
> feelings take their place.

I have found that this is true, although my list of resonant pieces is
probably different from yours or anyone else's. A perfect performance of
"Appalachian Spring", the second movement of the Khachaturian Piano
Concerto, Phil Ochs' "Pleasures of the Harbor" and the third movement of the
Shostakovich 5th symphony will do it for me almost every time.

> There is a similar effect with "xeno-"intervals,
> when you are just starting to understand some
> new identities on the ladder of primes. At this
> point, their emotion feels very strong, and you just
> have to listen again and again because feels good.

How are you defining "xeno-intervals"?? When I hear the term "xentonality",
I think of the work of William Sethares, which uses non-standard scales and
non-harmonic timbres designed to minimize a measure of dissonance. They do
indeed sound "foreign" or "strange", which is what the "xen" prefix implies,
and there is certainly an absence of dissonance. Are they "addicting",
though? I suspect in the hands of a truly great and inspired composer, they
could be. The compositions on Sethares' "Xentonality" are pleasant; they
don't seem to be meant to inspire emotions.

> For exemple, when you accept 5-limit intervals, not as
> out-of-tune imitations of 3-limit (or 12TET), but as
> new identities, they start to feel "right". When you
> let go of 12TET as your frame of reference, 5-limit
> music starts to feel sweet. If 3-limit is solid like
> an oak tree, 5-limit moves like a river.

An interesting metaphor, Kami. I must confess I have not heard any of your
music. I discovered just intonation many years ago in "On The Sensations of
Tone" and did some primitive experiments with it on a military surplus
computer when I was in graduate school. Right now, I am exploring just
intonation *and* xentonality, which I am treating as separate for the
moment.

> It is also possible to resist the emotional pull
> of a performance and "fly above" it, instead of
> "going with the flow." But then, this takes a
> certain degree of concentration and makes other
> activities difficult, because you are still
> focusing on the (dual/complement of the) emotions
> in the music.

Hmmm ... reminds me of the old psychology joke, "Don't think of a blue
elephant!" :-). Seriously, though, there is, no matter how much you analyze
a piece of music and determine its structure, something about a truly great
work that defies analysis.
--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com