Re: [tuning] uncommon practices [non-Western progs]

Joseph!
Like I have pointed out, composers have not been concerned with these progressions in over
100 years ( I am being very conservative in this estimate). They were all glad to get rid of
them which enabling some good music to be written.

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> Thank you, Dan, for your comment. Of course, you are right here. I
> guess I was just trying to explain to Paul the kind of music I was
> interested in... music that would certainly not use a typical
> "Western common practice" chord progression...

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

If anything, the music of the last 100 years (jazz, serialism . . .) has
been _more_ reliant on temperament than that which came before. Again,
I-vi-ii-V-I was just an example that makes the problem clear and simple . .
. more complex music only increases the difficulties.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/12160

> Joseph!
> Like I have pointed out, composers have not been concerned with
these progressions in over
> 100 years ( I am being very conservative in this estimate). They
were all glad to get rid of
> them which enabling some good music to be written.

As a "shell shocked" veteran of some excruciating music theory "ear
training" classes, I can CERTAINLY agree with you...

I'm a bit more "partial" though to the just versions as presented on
Monz file site:

http://www.egroups.com/files/tuning/monz/I-IV-V7-I+progression/

Well, there's no "vi," but still...
_______________ _____ ___ ___ _
Joseph Pehrson

Paul!
Jazz horn players do not concern themselves with temperament.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> If anything, the music of the last 100 years (jazz, serialism . . .) has
> been _more_ reliant on temperament than that which came before. Again,
> I-vi-ii-V-I was just an example that makes the problem clear and simple . .
> . more complex music only increases the difficulties.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig wrote,

>Jazz horn players do not concern themselves with temperament.

They often concern themselves with scales built up of whole steps and half
steps, various modes of which fit over various chords, often using tritone
relationships where a diminished fourth must equal an augmented fifth.
Doesn't sound like thinking that's very compatible with JI.

Look, the point I was making was that naively applying 5-limit JI to scales
and such was not necessarily the most "natural" thing to do from a musical
perspective.

Hmm, quite an afternoon at the ol' tuning list!

Kraig Grady wrote,

> Jazz horn players do not concern themselves with temperament.

I agree with Kraig and what he says about the unlikelihood of "ETs by
ear," but I don't necessarily agree with the above, simply because
most of the complex harmonic constructs of traditional jazz are a
result, or byproduct if you will, of tempering. Some players, like the
late Warne Marsh for instance (see most anything on the Warne Marsh
Quartet's "A Ballad Album"), manage to get deep inside both complex
vertical 'puzzles' and an acutely personal sense of intonation. (Sort
of having your cake and eating it too so to speak...)

Dan

Dan!
I understand that the entire vocabulary is dictated by temperment when using those
instruments that are locked in. I was referring to the practice of how horn players treat the
whole scale as greatly movable and flexible regardless of what is underneath. I sense that
that tolerance in intonation is beyond either Paul's or mine limits. I was thinking of
Coltrane whose scales often seem to be quite removed from the Piano.

"D.Stearns" wrote:

> I agree with Kraig and what he says about the unlikelihood of "ETs by
> ear," but I don't necessarily agree with the above, simply because
> most of the complex harmonic constructs of traditional jazz are a
> result, or byproduct if you will, of tempering. Some players, like the
> late Warne Marsh for instance (see most anything on the Warne Marsh
> Quartet's "A Ballad Album"), manage to get deep inside both complex
> vertical 'puzzles' and an acutely personal sense of intonation. (Sort
> of having your cake and eating it too so to speak...)
>
> Dan

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Dear Kraig,

Hello!

Yes, and this is most beautifully demonstrated on "Interstellar
Space"; one of my all time favorite Coltrane albums - where the piano
is nowhere to be found. Sometimes I love to put this on and play it
really loud just to bathe in the wonderful microtonal inflections and
multiphonics. Also, let's not forget Ornette and quite a bit of
Albert Ayler too, where there is rarely a piano being used. But hey -
I must admit here too that I really love McCoy Tyner on any album, he
just offers a wonderful tempered contrast that allows Coltrane's
exotic inflections to be most profoundly perceived.

Regards,

Jacky Ligon

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> I was thinking of
> Coltrane whose scales often seem to be quite removed from the Piano.

Kraig Grady wrote,

> I was referring to the practice of how horn players treat the whole
scale as greatly movable and flexible regardless of what is
underneath. I sense that that tolerance in intonation is beyond either
Paul's or mine limits.

Hi Kraig. When you say it's beyond the tolerance of your limits, do
you mean that only in the context of your music and what your trying
to do, or do you mean that you don't necessarily approve of it in even
in the broader sense? Probably both I would imagine... Though it does
almost always happen by some accident of circumstance, as in the
Coltrane example -- or say Hunn-Hurr-Tu (where Kuvezin's guitar is the
"accident of circumstance") -- I do think it's fascinating (though
that may have something to do with the fact that it's closer to some
of what I do), and that it really speaks for malleability of tuning
when it comes to inspired people making inspiring music... and not
that that's any sort of an excuse for the mass-produced instruments of
12-tET landing in places were they most likely wouldn't windup under
anything other than a somewhat dubious circumstance, but I do think
that the Coltranes or Partches of the world will always make stunning
musics no matter where they eventually find or place themselves
intonation wise. Personally, I'm much more interested in inspiring
music than I am tuning; though if I happen to find both at the same
address I'm definitely a happy man!

Dan