RE: [tuning] now, we're talking! [aesthetics]

Joseph wrote,

>Yes, I did read this post and find it very humorous... these commas
>are quite elusive creatures, aren't they!

Well, that's why the pentatonic "wants" to be tempered -- wherever you stick
the comma, discordance will be "tugging" at one interval, trying to make it
more "natural". Instead of leaving the comma-error in just one interval,
it's more natural to spread it out, so that all the intervals share it and
each only suffers a very small amount. And note that, according to my
calculation, it's not spread equally -- the central fifths are tempered more
than the outer ones. The calculation is very "natural" -- if you think of
discordance as analogous to energy, and harmonic entropy as the interaction
between two atoms as a function of distance, then what we've done is find
the minimum-energy state for a "molecule" of five note-"atoms" -- finding
the minimum-energy configuration is often exactly what nature does.

Joseph Pehrson wrote,

> Actually, I am hoping to get some sound samples up on the "Tuning
Lab" that involve extracts of pieces in various tunings... with
descriptions.

Yeah, bravo, I like this idea a lot!

Paul wrote,

> Both musical directions matter to me. If Bach, Beethoven, Brahms,
and the Beatles are all just little lambs to you, then I suppose we'll
never see eye-to-eye on this.

Joe answered,

> No, hardly, of course. But I still think that some of the best
alternately-tuned music I have seen around these parts of late comes
from Jacky Ligon and Kraig Grady...

But these are just taste issues, no? I really think that personal
preferences might be getting tied a little too tightly to generalized
tuning arguments here!

Dan

I find it insulting to be associated with these two.

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> It is true, though, that I also mostly listen to Bach, Beethoven and
> Kraig Grady...
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Paul!
Well I think Lou Harrison would disagree with you greatly on this one. Also the vast
pentatonics on the globe are begging not to be tempered. We like these intervals like you like
all you intervals out of tune up to 20c

> Well, that's why the pentatonic "wants" to be tempered -- wherever you stick
> the comma, discordance will be "tugging" at one interval, trying to make it
> more "natural". Instead of leaving the comma-error in just one interval,
> it's more natural to spread it out, so that all the intervals share it and
> each only suffers a very small amount.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig wrote,

>Also the vast pentatonics on the globe are begging not to be tempered.

Well, I only presented one (Chinese) example, so let's see an example of an
indigenous pentatonic music in 5-limit JI, Kraig.

> [Kraig Grady]
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/12145
>
> I find it insulting to be associated with these two.
>
> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> > It is true, though, that I also mostly listen to Bach,
> > Beethoven and Kraig Grady...

AHA! So there are *even better* theatrical possibilities
inherent in my *next* piece:

'Trio for Bach, Beethoven, and Kraig Grady'!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!! Today's List is a riot!

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

"Paul!
They have no reason to use limits at all but on the other hand will use fifths that are
further out such as a 32/21. Not to mention all those that use 11 and 13s all for thousand of
years but "research " shows that when given the choice we don't want those.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote

>
> Well, I only presented one (Chinese) example, so let's see an example of an
> indigenous pentatonic music in 5-limit JI, Kraig.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig wrote,

>They have no reason to use limits at all but on the other hand will use
fifths that are further out such as a 32/21. Not to mention all those >that
use 11 and 13s all for thousand of years but "research " shows that when
given the choice we don't want those.

Could you consider that maybe you are guilty of what you just criticized
Monz for in the context of planetary periods -- assuming rational
relationship when in fact all you are doing is finding good approximations,
which are always possible?

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/12143

> Joe answered,
>
> > No, hardly, of course. But I still think that some of the best
> alternately-tuned music I have seen around these parts of late comes
> from Jacky Ligon and Kraig Grady...
>
> But these are just taste issues, no? I really think that personal
> preferences might be getting tied a little too tightly to
generalized tuning arguments here!

Thank you, Dan, for your comment. Of course, you are right here. I
guess I was just trying to explain to Paul the kind of music I was
interested in... music that would certainly not use a typical
"Western common practice" chord progression...
____________ ____ __ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

Paul 1
good approximations to what?

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> Could you consider that maybe you are guilty of what you just criticized
> Monz for in the context of planetary periods -- assuming rational
> relationship when in fact all you are doing is finding good approximations,
> which are always possible?

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig,

I mean you're finding good approximations to idiosyncratic tunings that
reflect inharmonic timbres and/or "frozen accidents" of culture (imagine if
Dan Stearns, who today is recording for posterity interesting scales he
finds on his fretless guitar, had been a prince of a faraway kingdom 5000
years ago . . .)

-Paul

Paul!
Some of these tunings have persisted for ten of thousand of years. They are not the result
of a single individual ( as 12 et ) but the results of the collective ears over long period
of times. As far as I can see The best ET which is 12 could not satisfy a single culture for
even 500 years without coming apart at the seams. Dan I imagine will produce so very
beautiful scales that will hopefully be of use for others and might survive (with little or
slight modification) for 500 years. Let me know if he comes up with an ET

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> I mean you're finding good approximations to idiosyncratic tunings that
> reflect inharmonic timbres and/or "frozen accidents" of culture (imagine if
> Dan Stearns, who today is recording for posterity interesting scales he
> finds on his fretless guitar, had been a prince of a faraway kingdom 5000
> years ago . . .)

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig wrote,

>They are not the result of a single individual ( as 12 et )

If you mean Bach, well, I'm sure others will comment, but I must point out
that lutenists and guitarists were effectively using 12-tET well before
Bach's birth, and the Chinese derived 12-tET 1 year before the West.

>As far as I can see The best ET which is 12 could not satisfy a single
culture for even 500 years without coming apart at the >seams. Dan I
imagine will produce so very beautiful scales that will hopefully be of use
for others and might survive (with little or >slight modification) for 500
years. Let me know if he comes up with an ET

All I am objecting to is the idea that JI is the "most natural" tuning for
various scales.

Paul!
Out of all the various ways of forming scales I am just saying that ET is the most
unnatural or less probable outcome of the human ear.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> All I am objecting to is the idea that JI is the "most natural" tuning for
> various scales.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig wrote,

>Out of all the various ways of forming scales I am just saying that ET is
the most unnatural or less probable outcome of the human ear.

Of all the "natural" scales that I'm claiming as a result of my
calculations, you may notice that the vast majority are not ETs or subsets
of ETs. Many are JI. But quite a few are not. That's all I was pointing out.