RE: [tuning] Re: Paul Erlich's "precompositional" posts

Jacky wrote,

>Won't touch that one with a ten foot pole! Isn't Paul a guitarist and
>keyboardist too?

The only reason I'm here in front of a computer right now instead of playing
my guitar out on the street is $$$. I'm not interested in wealth and riches,
but I do like having a place to live and money to buy musical instruments.

And one more ET point: you give up a lot as a guitarist when you give up ET
(remember, the guitarists and lutenists played 12-tET back in the days when
keyboardists found such deviations from meantone very unpleasant).

>> With Paul, it is the opposite. I have the feeling he constructs
>> intellectual systems, and that's the most important part for him.
It
>> is only later that some of these become "auditory."

>I would really love to hear some more mp3s!

Tomorrow, Ara is moving to my town, and we will begin working on new pieces
for the Microthon. I promise to get these on .mp3s when we're ready.

>> So, if you are believing my argument, one would "gravitate" toward
>> just intervals, REGARDLESS of the particular constructs one set
up...
>> whether you began with equal temperament, meantone... with SOME
>> commas taken care of, or just, which has the commas.

>Isn't this partially what the findings of Harmonic Entropy have
>revealed to us?

When you're talking about a pitch set which consists of only two pitches,
yes. When you have, say, 5 or 7 pitches, you "gravitate" toward something
like meantone, for the same reasons.

>> Anybody want to back me up?? It's fun to take on Paul... or do I
>> just hear "chickens..." braach, braach, braach, braach...

>Is there something afoul here?!! He he!

bock bock b'gock

I wrote,

>> Joseph, have you forgotten the I-vi-ii-V-I progression we discussed
>>right after you joined the list?

Joseph wrote,

>Hmmmm. Well, Paul, that's more "Lamb" than "Lambda" as far as I am
>concerned...

Oh well. How about Beethoven -- check out Mathieu to see detailed analyses
of how Beethoven's music relies intimately on temperament. My musical heroes
include Bach and the Beatles, so progressions like this matter to me. In
22-tET I try to create progressions that give you a sense of "key", like
this one, but with a different kind of "key" or different intervallic
resources. Meanwhile, I also have a group which in which I play my guitar
like a sitar, along with didjeridu and African and Middle Eastern
percussion. I've been considering getting a near-JI guitar for that purpose.
Both musical directions matter to me. If Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, and the
Beatles are all just little lambs to you, then I suppose we'll never see
eye-to-eye on this.

>> Some of my latest posts have been geared toward disproving
>>_exactly_ this belief. For example, the natural resonances of just
>>intervals lead one most naturally to what kind of pentatonic scale? A
>>just one? No. I'd be happy to go over all this again if you like.

>Ok.. you'd better do that, since I'm obviously not "getting it."

Have you read the link (http://www.iohk.com/UserPages/thompson/03b8intn.htm)
yet? It might be a good idea for you to try to understand that, since it was
written with real music in mind, before we go any further.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/12134

> Oh well. How about Beethoven -- check out Mathieu to see detailed
analyses of how Beethoven's music relies intimately on temperament.
My musical heroes include Bach and the Beatles, so progressions like
this matter to me.

Yes... now, we're talking, but I'm, of course, primarily interested
in contemporary aesthetics and constructs.

It is true, though, that I also mostly listen to Bach, Beethoven and
Kraig Grady...

(Johnny Reinhard has done some amazing research on Bach with
Werkmeister of late... I wish we could get some of THOSE sound files
up... but the copyrights...)

>Meanwhile, I also have a group which in which I play my
>guitarlike a sitar, along with didjeridu and African and Middle
>Eastern percussion. I've been considering getting a near-JI guitar
>for that purpose.

Actually, I am hoping to get some sound samples up on the "Tuning
Lab" that involve extracts of pieces in various tunings... with
descriptions. If something like this of yours would apply, it would
be great. Jacky Ligon is going to get me something soon, too. This
way we don't have "only chords" as Dan Sterns "complains."

> Both musical directions matter to me. If Bach, Beethoven, Brahms,
and the Beatles are all just little lambs to you, then I suppose
we'll never see eye-to-eye on this.
>
No, hardly, of course. But I still think that some of the best
alternately-tuned music I have seen around these parts of late comes
from Jacky Ligon and Kraig Grady...

> >> Some of my latest posts have been geared toward disproving
> >>_exactly_ this belief. For example, the natural resonances of
just
> >>intervals lead one most naturally to what kind of pentatonic
scale? A
> >>just one? No. I'd be happy to go over all this again if you like.
>
> >Ok.. you'd better do that, since I'm obviously not "getting it."
>
> Have you read the link
(http://www.iohk.com/UserPages/thompson/03b8intn.htm)
> yet? It might be a good idea for you to try to understand that,
since it was
> written with real music in mind, before we go any further.

Yes, I did read this post and find it very humorous... these commas
are quite elusive creatures, aren't they!

_____________ _____ ___ __ __
Joseph Pehrson

Paul!
Such progression have had no importance in over a century. There is no reason to solve
problems no longer need to be solved. Even the Russians under Stalin were no longer concerned
with this stuff.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

>
> I wrote,
>
> >> Joseph, have you forgotten the I-vi-ii-V-I progression we discussed
> >>right after you joined the list?

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig -- ever heard of doo-wop? That was the 1950s. "No importance" -- now
who's more of a snob, you or the "academic elites"?

Paul!
As someone who was alive in the 50's I can tell you I hated this crap. It sounded
infantile and insincere to me even as a child. At 7 I kept saying I just can't wait till the
60's are here, and i was right. Just what is so great about Doo-wap compared to Hendrix. The
former influence is still here where as doo-wap, being another dead, end sank into to oblivion
because there was no where for it to go.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> Kraig -- ever heard of doo-wop? That was the 1950s. "No importance" -- now
> who's more of a snob, you or the "academic elites"?

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/12155
> Paul!
> As someone who was alive in the 50's I can tell you I hated
this
crap.
>
> > Kraig -- ever heard of doo-wop?

So, basically, our discussion of aesthetics on the Tuning List has
ended with justly-intoned Doo-Wop...

At least, progress has been made...
____________ ____ ___ __
Joseph Pehrson

Kraig,

I'm not a big fan of doo-wop either, but the I-vi-ii-V-I progression makes
the tuning problem relatively easy to understand. Beethoven was the other
example I gave, but (a) that's more than 100 years ago and (b) you've
already told us you're embarassed to be mentioned in his company. I'll try
to think of a Hendrix song to illustrate it instead . . . the point is that
diatonic, triadic tonal music, and therefore the comma issue, is very much
alive and well in pop circles, so whether or not you are the prophet for the
one true music of the next millenium, you can't just dismiss this all as
being of "no importance".

-Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
> As someone who was alive in the 50's I can tell you I hated this crap.
It sounded
> infantile and insincere to me even as a child. At 7 I kept saying I just
can't wait till the
> 60's are here, and i was right. Just what is so great about Doo-wap
compared to Hendrix. The
> former influence is still here where as doo-wap, being another dead, end
sank into to oblivion
> because there was no where for it to go.

Kraig, I can't tell if you're joking or not, but it seems not. Doowop is an
incarnation of the tradition of a capella singing, and when I hear really
good doowop it reminds me of the madrigals of Monteverdi and many others
from the rennaissance. As far as it "not going anywhere" there have been
innumerable girl groups and boy groups during the last 40 years that come
directly out of that. Take a look at what's at the top of the charts there
days. How could good a capella singing ever be bad? Four good voices singing
anything sounds great.

Dante

Paul!
This has already been solved . It is called 12 ET. Players already adjust to it as it is .
It cannot be improved on. I thought you were the prophet who sits upon the mount of this list.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> . . . the point is that
> diatonic, triadic tonal music, and therefore the comma issue, is very much
> alive and well in pop circles, so whether or not you are the prophet for the
> one true music of the next millenium, you can't just dismiss this all as
> being of "no importance".
>
> -Paul
> st mode.
> tuning-normal@egroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Rosati!
Sorry i don't hear Monteverdi in it at all. Just an westernized degration of the a capella
singing of Africa. Like I said, what they were singing about sounded like they were not
sincere. The lyrics were horrible from my memory. I sure haven't noticed any a capella groups
up there with Brintney/insync crowd. As I play in Clubs I also haven't noticed any such
groups, maybe they are at where they play swing music.

Rosati wrote:

> Kraig, I can't tell if you're joking or not, but it seems not. Doowop is an
> incarnation of the tradition of a capella singing, and when I hear really
> good doowop it reminds me of the madrigals of Monteverdi and many others
> from the rennaissance. As far as it "not going anywhere" there have been
> innumerable girl groups and boy groups during the last 40 years that come
> directly out of that. Take a look at what's at the top of the charts there
> days. How could good a capella singing ever be bad? Four good voices singing
> anything sounds great.
>
> Dante

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig wrote,

>This has already been solved . It is called 12 ET. Players already adjust
to it as it is . It cannot be improved on

Of course that's not the case, as John deLaubenfels retuned MIDI files
demonstrate . . . but assume for the moment that it is. So what? The problem
has been solved -- so does that mean all music that benefits from this
"solution" is suddenly rendered unimportant? And all potential future musics
that could benefit from analogous solutions to other tuning problems, those
are unimportant too?

>I thought you were the prophet who sits upon the mount of this list.

Riiiiiiiiiight . . . . I would be humbled to be mentioned in the same line
as Bach and Beethoven, while you are ashamed. I feel so bad for you that you
were pulled down to their level.

Paul!
It not a matter of level, oranges don't want to be grouped with apples.
I am sure for all there worth if I ended a sentence with OZZIE,ROBERT PLANT, and PAUL ERLICH,
all talented, but you might feel a little out of place.
I am not on this list proposing tunings for everyone to use, I comment many when I think the
viewpoint is getting a bit narrow. In fact, i tend to shy away from directing people to use
what i am using.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> Riiiiiiiiiight . . . . I would be humbled to be mentioned in the same line
> as Bach and Beethoven, while you are ashamed. I feel so bad for you that you
> were pulled down to their level.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
> Sorry i don't hear Monteverdi in it at all. Just an westernized
degration of the a capella
> singing of Africa. Like I said, what they were singing about sounded like
they were not
> sincere. The lyrics were horrible from my memory. I sure haven't noticed
any a capella groups
> up there with Brintney/insync crowd. As I play in Clubs I also haven't
noticed any such
> groups, maybe they are at where they play swing music

I've seen a couple of tv stories about these current boy groups where they
sing a phrase or two a cappella from one of their songs. If you take away
the syths etc from their stuff what they are doing is pure part singing. My
point was that what they are doing is comming from doowop, via the
Temptations etc., since you had said doowop "never went anywhere". There is
real acapella stuff too- don't you remember Boyztomen's hit from the 80's
"It's so hard to say good bye to yesterday"? That stuff is beautiful. If you
don't remember it, fire up your Napster.

"Westernized degration"? Gimme a break (and P.S. - "degration" is not a
word) I get the impression you're a real west-o-phobe. I guess that's why
you've retreated to the Anaphoria inside your head.

Dante

Kraig wrote,

>It not a matter of level, oranges don't want to be grouped with apples.
>I am sure for all there worth if I ended a sentence with OZZIE,ROBERT
PLANT, and PAUL ERLICH, all talented, but you might feel a >little out of
place.

Not really out of place -- I'd just feel insecure about my singing ability.
I would never say "I find it insulting to be associated with these two" --
on the contrary, I'd be honored as a guitarist to be associated with the
vocalists that Toni Iommi, Randy Rhoads, and Jimmy Page were associated
with.

If the context were animal rights, well, then I might find it insulting to
be associated with Ozzy, but what is it about Bach and Beethoven that
insults you so?

Back to tuning . . .

Roast!
Not all a cappella signing is from Doo-wap. Considering you hear Monteverdi on this music
I can only assumed you must be Euro-o-phobe projecting rennaissance music upon the littlest
of stimuli. Like all Euro-o-phobes , the vision is directed backwards, degration is a word if
i choose to use it, and you understand it, which you did.

Rosati wrote:

> I've seen a couple of tv stories about these current boy groups where they
> sing a phrase or two a cappella from one of their songs. If you take away
> the syths etc from their stuff what they are doing is pure part singing. My
> point was that what they are doing is comming from doowop, via the
> Temptations etc., since you had said doowop "never went anywhere". There is
> real acapella stuff too- don't you remember Boyztomen's hit from the 80's
> "It's so hard to say good bye to yesterday"? That stuff is beautiful. If you
> don't remember it, fire up your Napster.
>
> "Westernized degration"? Gimme a break (and P.S. - "degration" is not a
> word) I get the impression you're a real west-o-phobe. I guess that's why
> you've retreated to the Anaphoria inside your head.
>
> Dante

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Paul!
Like i said , the context, i am sure those two would not want to be associated with me
either.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote

> If the context were animal rights, well, then I might find it insulting to
> be associated with Ozzy, but what is it about Bach and Beethoven that
> insults you so?

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com