Re: [tuning] Paul Erlich's "precompositional" posts

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> So, if you are believing my argument, one would "gravitate" toward
> just intervals, REGARDLESS of the particular constructs one set up...
> whether you began with equal temperament, meantone... with SOME
> commas taken care of, or just, which has the commas.
>
> Furthermore, I really don't believe, particularly in an "advanced"
> 21st century music, using the full range of possibilities, that the
> commas really mean anything.

I agree, in fact, make them work for you.

> Sure, if you want to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and transpose
> through all keys in 12 or 19 or whatever, commas could be a problem,
> if you want to return to the same place.

It just adds to the fum!

> But who really wants to do that??

Paul?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Joseph Pehrson wrote,

> Sure, if you want to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and transpose
through all keys in 12 or 19 or whatever, commas could be a problem,
if you want to return to the same place.

> But who really wants to do that??

Rhetorical questions aside <smile thing>, listen to the first two cuts
from the B side of Art Tatum's "20th Century Piano Genius" -- "My
Heart Stood Still" and "Jitterbug Waltz". There are some PROFOUNDLY
*bizarre* (and I think incredibly interesting) modulations and the
like that are the product of a curious and preposterous natural talent
being so ridiculously far inside a given tuning paradigm that it's
literally turned inside out... and while that paradigm is of course
twelve tone equal temperament here, I can hear (or at least dream of)
the potential sounds of some future analog to Tatum in say 19-tET
rather than 12... and while some might be looking for a lot more from
the future than that, that's really not my point.

Dan

Joseph, much of what you say is arguable, but I draw the line at:

>I have the feeling [Paul] constructs
>intellectual systems, and that's the most important part for him.

No -- the music is the most important part. When I go home from work, I play
music. When I'm in the office, intellectualizing and calculating is the
often the best thing I can do -- toward the ultimate end of real music. I'm
just a baby when it comes to composing -- but I'm sure that when I'm 30, 40,
whatever, I'll be very grateful for the background in tuning that
participating in this list is giving me.

Also, why don't you ask Joe Monzo or others on this list how many times I've
complained that this or that calculation has _no musical relevance_.

>I believe it lead Harry Partch to a just system, and this is also why
>I am saying that if one were to have a way of making music where ANY
>system is possible... and we are actually NOW, with synthesizers,
>Scala, and so forth, in this position, certain RESONANCES, as Jacky
>Ligon expresses, will DICTATE THE NATURE of the tuning system.

>So, if you are believing my argument, one would "gravitate" toward
>just intervals, REGARDLESS of the particular constructs one set up...
>whether you began with equal temperament, meantone... with SOME
>commas taken care of, or just, which has the commas.

Some of my latest posts have been geared toward disproving _exactly_ this
belief. For example, the natural resonances of just intervals lead one most
naturally to what kind of pentatonic scale? A just one? No. I'd be happy to
go over all this again if you like. And trust me, this is not just
intellectualizing, I've actually played music with variously tuned
pentatonic scales. Is this a math-obsessed, Western-biased point of view? To
see the same point from the perspective of a Chinese musician, see
http://www.iohk.com/UserPages/thompson/03b8intn.htm.

>It's fun to take on Paul... or do I
>just hear "chickens..." braach, braach, braach, braach...

Don't get it.

Joseph wrote,

>Sure, if you want to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and transpose
>through all keys in 12 or 19 or whatever, commas could be a problem,
>if you want to return to the same place.

Joseph, have you forgotten the I-vi-ii-V-I progression we discussed right
after you joined the list?

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/12126

> Joseph, much of what you say is arguable, but I draw the line at:
>
> >I have the feeling [Paul] constructs
> >intellectual systems, and that's the most important part for him.
>

> No -- the music is the most important part. When I go home from
work, I play music. When I'm in the office, intellectualizing and
calculating is the often the best thing I can do -- toward the
ultimate end of real music. I'm just a baby when it comes to
composing -- but I'm sure that when I'm 30, 40, whatever, I'll be
very grateful for the background in tuning that participating in this
list is giving me.
>
> Also, why don't you ask Joe Monzo or others on this list how many
times I've complained that this or that calculation has _no musical
relevance_.
>

Hi Paul!

Great! That's why we have to always get the sound files going that
correspond to your significant and, most probably, "groundbreaking"
research in tuning! Of course, I too have to find time to upload
them to the Tuning Lab site!

I'm glad that, like me, you try to do as little "real work" and as
much "music work" on your day job as possible...[who's reading
this... those d... office spys again...]

> >I believe it lead Harry Partch to a just system, and this is also
why I am saying that if one were to have a way of making music where
ANY system is possible... and we are actually NOW, with synthesizers,
> >Scala, and so forth, in this position, certain RESONANCES, as
Jacky Ligon expresses, will DICTATE THE NATURE of the tuning system.
> >So, if you are believing my argument, one would "gravitate" toward
> >just intervals, REGARDLESS of the particular constructs one set
up... whether you began with equal temperament, meantone... with SOME
> >commas taken care of, or just, which has the commas.
>

> Some of my latest posts have been geared toward disproving
_exactly_ this belief. For example, the natural resonances of just
intervals lead one most naturally to what kind of pentatonic scale? A
just one? No. I'd be happy to go over all this again if you like.

Ok.. you'd better do that, since I'm obviously not "getting it."

Thanks again, as ever!!!

________ _____ ___ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/12127

> Joseph wrote,
>
> >Sure, if you want to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and transpose
> >through all keys in 12 or 19 or whatever, commas could be a
problem, if you want to return to the same place.

> Joseph, have you forgotten the I-vi-ii-V-I progression we discussed
right after you joined the list?

Hmmmm. Well, Paul, that's more "Lamb" than "Lambda" as far as I am
concerned...

_____________ _____ __ __ __
Joseph Pehrson