Replies to Banshphu

Banashphu wrote,

>We seem to remember Hornbostel, whose first name was you last.

Oh, Erich, pretty close to Erlich

>believing this was the basis of Pelog and Slendro

>I find it interesting that the preferred rate of beating between "unisons"
is between 6-16 in Java and Bali.

Yes -- I remember reading that these "unisons" get narrower and narrower as
you go up in pitch, in order to preserve that preferred rate of beating.

>This beating third, like vibrato, could be preferred by some?

Absolutely -- the immediate reaction of most Western musicians, after 150
years of 12-tET hegemony, to triads with just thirds is usually that they
sound "dead" or "lifeless". Of course, once just thirds are accepted, going
back to 12-tET is even more difficult. I myself experience this multiple
personality whenever I switch between 22-tET (where the 5:4 is only 2 cents
off just) and 12-tET (where the 5:4 is 14 cents off just).

Tests of musically untrained Western subjects showed two clearly delineated
categories of listeners -- one category preferred major triads just, while
the other preferred major triads with the third either raised or lowered 15
cents. They didn't differentiate between the raised version, very close to
12-tET; and the lowered version, very different (something you might
construct out of a Byzantine scale). Apparantly they just liked (perhaps
through acculturation) a certain amount of "richness" in their triads.

Even if I absolutely hated vibrato and beating, I think my ideal intervals
(ignoring considerations of how they connect with one another) would be just
a fraction of a cent off just, so that the overtones wouldn't be
phase-locked but would "flange" a bit. This is the kind of quality you get
with exceptionally good vocal ensembles.

>Absolutely -- the immediate reaction of most Western musicians, after 150
>years of 12-tET hegemony, to triads with just thirds is usually that they
>sound "dead" or "lifeless".

Paul- what is your source on this?

-Carl

>>>Absolutely -- the immediate reaction of most Western musicians, after 150
>>>years of 12-tET hegemony, to triads with just thirds is usually that they
>>>sound "dead" or "lifeless".
>
>>Paul- what is your source on this?
>
>Lots of reading and anecdotal experience (testing other musicians and
>myself). I'm specifically thinking keyboard instruments using timbres with
>harmonic partials here.

I have seen contradictory findings here. I've seen studies which conclude
that 'most musicians find just thirds dead, at first', and studies which
conclude that 'most prefer them immediately, and express disbelief that the
"tempered" third is correct'. I dismiss such studies as unmeaningful -- I
believe the context of the hearing is far stronger than any innate effect,
if there is one.

I myself, exposed to a great variety of music, the piano and trumpet, from
an early age, can remember having both kinds of reactions, at various times,
before becoming fully conscious of the difference between just and tempered,
and between 5- and 7-limit, sounds.

-Carl

On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Carl Lumma wrote:

> I have seen contradictory findings here. I've seen studies which conclude
> that 'most musicians find just thirds dead, at first', and studies which
> conclude that 'most prefer them immediately, and express disbelief that the
> "tempered" third is correct'. I dismiss such studies as unmeaningful -- I
> believe the context of the hearing is far stronger than any innate effect

And how. I don't know what I would do if I were a contemporary composer.
As a mere performer I use pure thirds in William Byrd and Orlando Gibbons,
tempered thirds in Brahms and Prokofiev. Everything in-between I fudge in
one direction or another.

Judy