Re : [tuning] Do you like clean numbers ?

Pierre lamothe gave 'clean' numbers to understand the shruti-system in
Indian music:
> D'ici
> quelques jours je vais rendre disponible le texte que je prépare sur le
> système indien où les définitions de shruti, matrice S et base shrutale
> canonique permettent de tout comprendre, si bien sûr, l'intérêt se fait
> sentir.
(skip)>

> Indien ...
>
> [22 70 90](10,5,7) = 1200 (cents)
>
> [1 1 1](10,5,7) = 22 (shrutis)
> [0 1 1](10,5,7) = 12 (demi-tons)
> [0 0 1](10,5,7) = 7 (degrés)

Pierre,

I do have one question about the Indian shrutis. In your research you seem
to consider the shrutis all the time as just ratios. Many theorists do that
as well: Alan Daniélou for instance. I do have a TEXTBOOK OF INDIAN MUSIC,
written in 1934 by Pt. Firoze Framjee, Poona. He brings all the ratios,
commas etc, together into one system, confirming the 'ancient writings' and
nowadays practice, all the time using just ratios. The book is excellent in
itself and I can you send a photocopy without any problem. I do have some
doubts about it, though. I played the Indian sitar myself and had an
excellent Indian teacher in Amsterdam. He tuned all the strings, including
the ones used for resonance, simply by ear and it sounded all right to me.
Much better than I could myself, using naively a 12-tet reference. The point
is, today, when I tune the sitar which I have now, with a one cent accuracy,
into a raga as proposed by Firoze Framjee, I simply hear a very clean,
beatless result, exactly the same as hearing the single string piano tuned
by Lou Harrisson. It doesn't correspond to what I heard from my teacher.
Neither does it correspond to any record or CD I possess with Indian music.
So, are just ratios really enough to explain Indian music, or is there some
more? What about the melodic quality of all the steps?

Your English is excellent. I make many mistakes myself, but my ideas are not
as complicated as yours. Post me privately in French, whenever you want.
BTW, I do live in Paris.

--Wim Hoogewerf

Wim wrote,

>The point
>is, today, when I tune the sitar which I have now, with a one cent
accuracy,
>into a raga as proposed by Firoze Framjee, I simply hear a very clean,
>beatless result, exactly the same as hearing the single string piano tuned
>by Lou Harrisson. It doesn't correspond to what I heard from my teacher.
>Neither does it correspond to any record or CD I possess with Indian music.
>So, are just ratios really enough to explain Indian music, or is there some
>more? What about the melodic quality of all the steps?

The only Indian instrument which sounds to me like it (or rather its master
players) uses the "theoretical" just ratios is the santoor, a hammer
dulcimer, fixed-pitch by nature. All other Indian instruments (not including
the 12-tET harmonium) are variable-pitch, and the detailes expressive
nuances of master players make references to a fixed grid of ratios somewhat
arbitrary.