Re: [tuning] Re: Zalzal Scales

Dear George Kahrimanis;
I believe the ornaments play a large part too. It was my understanding that it was not
only the neutral third that varied, but other intervals also. I assume the difference might be
similar to what Kraig has mentioned about delta and chicago blues.

George Kahrimanis wrote:

> Kraig Grady wrote: ( kraig is still away)
>
> > we were recently talking to an oud player about the intonation
> >throughout the mid east and in particular, the interval of
> > Zalzal. He commented how the intonation varied from region to region,
> >stating for instance that the intonation in Egypt was
> > drastically different from that found in Iran. It was by the
> >intonation differences in fact enabled him to tell him where the
> > player was from.
>
> Hello. Thank you for the interesting report. I am puzzled, though,
> because the neutral third does not seem to have a wide range.
> A little smaller and it will be like a 6/5 minor third; a little wider
> and it sounds like a 5/4 major third. Might it be something else
> in the playing, like in the articulation of the tones, that
> provided clues to that oud player? What do y' all think?
>
> - George Kahrimanis anakreon@hol.gr
>
>

-- Banaphshu
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Dear Paul Erlich;
You are correct that "not"should have be "now". http://www.anaphoria.com/genus.html is
the 17 tone scale, the Persian version I understand starts a whole tone lower or the indian
starts on the tone a whole tone higher, I cannot find in Kraigs notes which is which.

Paul Erlich wrote:

> --- In tuning@egroups.com, Banaphshu<kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> > According to the Late Amiya Dusgupta the 17-tone Persian system is
> what is not used in North
> > India to play the 22-tone srutis. 5 tones have fallen into misuse.
>
> Banaphshu, do you mean "now used" rather than "not used"? If so, it would
> have to be a "mode" of the 17-tone system, since this wouldn't work
> if
> the 1/1s were the same. Please elaborate if possible. And surely you
> mean "disuse" and not "misuse"!
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Banaphshu, thanks for correcting me -- I forgot that you were filling
in for Kraig on his e-mail account.

> http://www.anaphoria.com/genus.html is
> the 17 tone scale, the Persian version I understand starts a whole
tone lower or the indian
> starts on the tone a whole tone higher, I cannot find in Kraigs
notes which is which.

Those would be perfectly equivalent ways of looking at it, wouldn't
they?

"Kraig Grady" wrote:

>> we were recently talking to an oud player about the intonation
>>throughout the mid east and in particular, the interval of
>> Zalzal. He commented how the intonation varied from region to region,
>>stating for instance that the intonation in Egypt was
>> drastically different from that found in Iran. It was by the
>>intonation differences in fact enabled him to tell him where the
>> player was from.

George K. wrote,

>Hello. Thank you for the interesting report. I am puzzled, though,
>because the neutral third does not seem to have a wide range.
>A little smaller and it will be like a 6/5 minor third; a little wider
>and it sounds like a 5/4 major third. Might it be something else
>in the playing, like in the articulation of the tones, that
>provided clues to that oud player? What do y' all think?

Certainly the "neutral third" is found in many forms -- in Persian and
Byzantine music, often around 367 cents. Remember, these musics are melodic,
not harmonic, so the field of attraction of nearby simple ratios is not
really an issue.