Useless decimal places

The point has been made, quite correctly, that when any of us bandy
about tuning values to .0001 cents, that precision is WAY beyond what
the ear can hear. If I play two notes, one at 440 hz, the other .0001
cents higher (or lower), it'd take them over 5 hours to get out of phase
and another 5 hours to get back in! Clearly this is way into the realm
of mathematical fantasy as far as the ear goes.

Still, I am guilty of posting tuning values to .0001 cents.

I like to see these absurdly precise values because it helps maintain a
consistency check on what my program is doing: when things are supposed
to add up to zero, more decimal places are better.

Of course, contained in the number 10.0375 cents is also something of
substance. I hope it's clear that it's meant to convey, "somewhere
around 9 to 11 cents", rather than ".0001 cents more than the incorrect
value of 10.0374 cents".

In the end, all this math, overly precise or not, is meant to be in
service of music. Without lovely musical results, the numbers mean
nothing.

JdL

Dear Readers,

There is a possible reason why all these decimals might be useful.
Obviously not for tuning purposes.

I am interested in tuning in Byzantine musical modes. They are
supposedly different from many western tunings. I am interested to
learn why these tunings sound `natural'.

It is clear that JI is closely associated with integral divisions
of a vibrating string, whereas ET is not. But if one to use a vibrating
plate (drum) the harmonic structure is quite different from that of a
string. Perhaps scales based on the natural harmonics of a drum could
be interesting.

In summary if I am given a scale - with intervals specified - it may need
to be given very accurately in order to determine its `natural' origin -
if that exists. But perhaps any sequence of notes sounds natural enough
if you hear it often enough!

Any comments?

--
Dr John van der Hoek l e-mail:
Department of Applied Mathematics, l jvanderh@maths.adelaide.edu.au
University of Adelaide, l 'phone: +61-(0)8-8303-5903
Adelaide, S.A. 5005 AUSTRALIA l fax: +61-(0)8-8303-3696

John van der Hoek wrote,

> But if one to use a vibrating plate (drum) the harmonic structure is
quite different from that of a string. Perhaps scales based on the
natural harmonics of a drum could be interesting.

If you don't already know of it, you might be interested in checking
out Bill Sethares' work... you can also hear his "Glass Lake" and
"Duet for Morphine and Cymbal" at:

<http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/72/the_tuning_punks.html>

> But perhaps any sequence of notes sounds natural enough if you hear
it often enough!

I agree with this... and I've done a lot of experiments, careful
listening, and composing, involving various aspects of (musical)
simultaneity, and I never cease to be amazed at what I can eventually
come to grips with; what I can learn to get my ear around... or maybe
that should say, "what my ear can learn to get me around!"

Dan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: D.Stearns [mailto:STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET]
> I agree with this... and I've done a lot of experiments, careful
> listening, and composing, involving various aspects of (musical)
> simultaneity, and I never cease to be amazed at what I can eventually
> come to grips with; what I can learn to get my ear around... or maybe
> that should say, "what my ear can learn to get me around!"
>
> Dan

When I was much younger (1974 - 1977) I used to go to the Computer Music
Conferences. I recall meeting one composer, I think his name was Bruce
Hemmingway, who told me that his goal, and one that he thought all composers
should share, was to create pieces that would hold a listener's interest for
more than four minutes. He admitted that he had never done it, and didn't
think any contemporary composer in the electronic/computer realm had either.
This "four-minute rule" is one I subscribe to, and I am reminded of some of
the rather lengthy symphonic pieces that hold my interest, for example, the
Shostakovich 11th symphony, which, plus or minus some conductors' tempo
digressions, runs about 65 minutes. So, can someone recommend a piece over
four minutes that is xenharmonic or xentonal (or both) that holds *your*
interest? Surely in the years since 1977, someone has written something.

>So, can someone recommend a piece over
>four minutes that is xenharmonic or xentonal (or both) that holds *your*
>interest?

Much Harry Partch falls into this category, though it takes time to get used
to his style.

>Surely in the years since 1977, someone has written something.

Oh, since 1977 . . . well the performance might be barely over four minutes,
but the Catler Bros' "Hyperspace" (off of the recent _Crash Landing_) is a
microtonal jazz-fusion tune, and without fail captures the attention (and
high praise) of any friend I play the CD for (caveat: most of my friends are
musicians, and I do play in a fusiony band) . . .

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Ed Borasky wrote,

> I recall meeting one composer, I think his name was Bruce
Hemmingway, who told me that his goal, and one that he thought all
composers should share, was to create pieces that would hold a
listener's interest for more than four minutes. He admitted that he
had never done it, and didn't think any contemporary composer in the
electronic/computer realm had either. This "four-minute rule" is one I
subscribe to, and I am reminded of some of the rather lengthy
symphonic pieces that hold my interest, for example, the Shostakovich
11th symphony, which, plus or minus some conductors' tempo
digressions, runs about 65 minutes. So, can someone recommend a piece
over four minutes that is xenharmonic or xentonal (or both) that holds
*your* interest? Surely in the years since 1977, someone has written
something.

Well the problem here IMO, is that the very premise of the
"four-minute rule" is subject to revision every time a piece is run
through a different set of ears (tastes, etc.), or even the same set
of ears (et al) on a different day, year, (etc.)... Personally if I
really start thinking that my music can't (at the very least!) hold my
attention (admittedly the only attention I really give too much of a
damn about), then I'm waving the white flag and calling it a day - and
fast!

Dan

From: Ed Borasky <znmeb@teleport.com>

> So, can someone recommend a piece over
> four minutes that is xenharmonic or xentonal (or both) that holds *your*
> interest? Surely in the years since 1977, someone has written something.
>

The following are, in my opinion, masterpieces, but as yet unrecorded:

Douglas Leedy _Pastorale_ (1987) for mixed chorus and retuned (just) piano,
four hands
Alvin Lucier _Navigations for Strings_ (1991)for string quartet, 15 minutes
La Monte Young _Chronos Kristalla_(1990) for string quartet (just
intonation, all natural harmonics), ca. 90 minutes

The following have been recorded but may be a bit difficult to find:

Lou Harrison _Concerto for Piano with Javanese Gamelan_
Ron Kuivila _Alphabet_ (electronic)
Klarenz Barlow _Cogluotobusisletmesi_, retuned piano solo

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> Douglas Leedy _Pastorale_ (1987) for mixed chorus and retuned (just) piano,
> four hands

Is this different than the piece performed in Santa Cruz. if so it is great , if it is similar
it is great.

> Lou Harrison _Concerto for Piano with Javanese Gamelan

Still my favorite Lou Harrison Piece!!!

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote:

Daniel Wolf wrote:
Douglas Leedy _Pastorale_ (1987) for mixed chorus and retuned (just)
piano,
four hands

Is this different than the piece performed in Santa Cruz. if so it is great
, if it is similar it is great.

Kraig: it's the same piece. It's really stunning. His scanning of the text
(Horace's ode "Odi profanum vulgus") is brilliant, the tuning (from f: 1/1,
33/32, 9/8, 7/6, 5/4, 4/3, 11/8, 3/2, 5/3, 27/16, 7/4, 15/8, with an
additional 10/9 in vocal parts) works well and does some surprising things.

Daniel!
Yes, i heard it twice and both times I loved being saturated with the JI choir. Yes it
should be recorded and performed more!. He also one of the concerts, sang songs of Landini
using the 8-9-10-11-12 found on the piano. A very underrated and under performed composer!

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> Daniel Wolf wrote:
> Douglas Leedy _Pastorale_ (1987) for mixed chorus and retuned (just)
> piano,
> four hands
>
> Is this different than the piece performed in Santa Cruz. if so it is great
> , if it is similar it is great.
>
> Kraig: it's the same piece. It's really stunning. His scanning of the text
> (Horace's ode "Odi profanum vulgus") is brilliant, the tuning (from f: 1/1,
> 33/32, 9/8, 7/6, 5/4, 4/3, 11/8, 3/2, 5/3, 27/16, 7/4, 15/8, with an
> additional 10/9 in vocal parts) works well and does some surprising things.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com