Re: [tuning] Historical tunings

Greetings all,
I am back, and I am stunned:

John writes:

<< I recently received a notice that the pieces listed below, as well as
others from the 20th century, would be performed at the Smithsonian
<snip> The reply I received
was that Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier was written during the era of 12tet
and that the pianos would be tuned that way. Would any of you who know
please tell me what tunings would have been most likely at the time of each
of the following compositions, so that I may pass the information on to the
people presenting the concert?<<

The list that follows is bascially a coverage of the well tempered era,
in which no third was larger than the 21.5 cents, and the rules of
Werckmeister seemed to have been more or less universally accepted. There
were exceptions, of course, and intonational history was different in
different areas. There are a few simple guidelines to start, but in the end,
the actual listening to the pieces in various temperaments is the only
realistic way to draw any sort of value judement.
This is of particular interest to me, as we are just completing our
second CD of a well-tempered modern piano, (does anybody remember "Beethoven
In The Temperaments?). Enid Katahn is playing six pieces in six
temperaments. The temperament choices were mine, and I based them on
listening to a variety of the likely possiblities that we know of at any
given time. They are as follows:

Scarlatti K96 is being done in a Werckmeister (1691)
Mozart Kv385 Prelleur temperament 1731
Haydn nr. 49 Kirnberger III
Beethoven op. 110 Young
Chopin Impr. 66 DeMorgan
Grieg "The Bellringer" in a Coleman 11

The DeMorgan and Coleman may be unfamiliar names to most, so if I may
briefly describe them, The DeMorgan is a reversed order tuning, ie, the
more accidentals in the signature, the more Just the tonic third. This is
backwards to the Werckmeister inspired, generally accepted, harmonic order,
but we think Chopin's music does wonderful and unepected things when taken
out of ET.
Jim Coleman is a contemporary piano technician and theorist. He used a
spreadsheet to create a range of well temperaments, from a very mild
"bending" of strict ET as in the Victorian era tunings to a very strong
tuning that is just 1 cent short of resembling a Young. I use his #11 tuning
to introduce customers to non-ET on their pianos, and it has been used in
recording studios here for recording by Steve Earle and Bob Seger, among
others.

For a starting point, the following groups of pieces could profitably be
tried on the suggested temperaments. Nothing is carved in stone, you have to
listen to decide. The first temperament is the strongest, the second the
mildest.

Haydn Sonata in Ab......Werckmeister or Young {the Werckmeister has a lot
of tonal contrast, the Young is pretty refined sounding.}

Mozart Sonata in A w/variations
Mozart Sonata in A minor...................The Kirnberger III or the
Prelleur

Beethoven Fur Elise............................. Young

Beethoven Moonlight Sonata
Beethoven Waldstein Sonata...........Young ( you can hear them in this
tuning on our Beethoven CD)

Schubert Sonata in A minor DV 845
Schumann Symphonic Etudes, Scenes from Childhood.........Young

Brahms Piano Concerto #1
Lizst Sonata in B minor.....................................A "Broadwood"
style, ala Jorgensen

Chopin Fantasie in F minor, Prelude in A, Fantasie Impromptu,
Polonaise..Demorgan or a Broadwood

Puccini Arias (transcribed by B.T.)..........I have no idea what would
work here

Rachmaninoff Prelude in G minor .............Equal Temperament

Recognition of key color is a learned skill. For those that haven't
done it, the whole concept sounds like "the King has no clothes!", but for
those that have, music has a much greater dimension. The next unequal
tuning project on the horizon is a Cole Porter collection. We will probably
be using Jim Coleman;s Victorian for all of it.
Sorry I can't discuss all the latest super-wazoo-diamond-interlace comput
er scales, but I am pleasently stuck in the 18th and 19th century. If there
is any more interest, I'll keep y'all posted on the Temperament Revival's
progress.
Regards to everyone,
Ed Foote
Precision Piano Works
Nashville, Tn
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html

Ed Foote !
It is my understanding that Chopin would tune his own pianos tuning to some form of
meantone.
source was Lou Harrison

a440a@aol.com wrote:

> but we think Chopin's music does wonderful and unepected things when taken
> out of ET.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

kraig writes:
<< It is my understanding that Chopin would tune his own pianos tuning to
some form of
meantone. source was Lou Harrison >>

Greetings,
Hmm., this doesn't jibe with the account of Chopin being so
distraught over his tuner jumping off a bridge to his fini. I haven't tried
any of the tunings with a third over 21 cents for Chopin, but since I am
going to experiment with a 1/6 comma for the Scarlatti piece, perhaps Enid
will play the Impromptu again on it and we will see. I gotta say that the
DeMorgan is a real stretch, harmonically, as it is.
Regards,
Ed Foote

> Ed Foote !
> It is my understanding that Chopin would tune his own pianos tuning
to some form of meantone.
> source was Lou Harrison

OUCH!!! You've got to be kidding!

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On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Paul H. Erlich wrote:

> > Ed Foote !
> > It is my understanding that Chopin would tune his own pianos tuning
> to some form of meantone.
> > source was Lou Harrison
>
> OUCH!!! You've got to be kidding!

Yes, he must be kidding. Or (mis)channelling. When I did my 'Chopin on
giant-unfretted-clavichord' concert last fall I used Werckmeister III;
Marpurg would probably have been even better. Any one meantone for the
whole program, which included works in f minor, A-flat major, c# minor, c
minor, C major, G major, would have been a disaster, and I feel no need at
all for pure thirds in Chopin.

Additionally, I did read through or skim a massive amount of the available
literature on Chopin including the published letters in preparation for
that concert, and saw very little reference to tuning, I think there was
some implication that he was capable of doing it but no details.

Judy

Ed Foote wrote:

>Greetings all,
> I am back, and I am stunned:

Thanks, Ed, for the suggestions about the tunings. I've passed the
information along to those presenting the program. I don't know whether it
will make a difference. I'll let you know what happens.

John Link

Visit www.johnlinkmusic.com for info about the new CD by my vocal quintet.

Hello,

Sorry about being so late on this thread, but I recall hearing
about a rare book written by the technician who tuned Chopin's piano... I
have heard of this book through the technician at my school who I have
discussed tuning with... do any of you know of this book and its
availability?

Steven Kallstrom