first piece

Hi All,
At long last I am releasing my first microtonal piece into the wild ...

http://soundcloud.com/martinsj013/sirmdbidnud2

I have deliberately not said anything about it, as I am very interested to see to what extent it is obvious to you listeners what the tuning is and what I have done / not done with it. However, if nobody wants to play, I'll say something sooner or later.

Steve M.

Beautiful, Steve! I think it's 10-EDO, or something close to it. Lots
of mileage to be gotten out of 10-EDO, methinks...

-Mike

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 8:32 AM, martinsj013 <martinsj@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> At long last I am releasing my first microtonal piece into the wild ...
>
> http://soundcloud.com/martinsj013/sirmdbidnud2
>
> I have deliberately not said anything about it, as I am very interested to see to what extent it is obvious to you listeners what the tuning is and what I have done / not done with it. However, if nobody wants to play, I'll say something sooner or later.
>
> Steve M.

Hi Steve, I second Mike's Beautiful!

I personally enjoyed the development you did during the piece. I can't
possible guess the tuning though I also enjoyed the tonal use of
whatever tuning you employed.

Chris

On 11/30/12, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> Beautiful, Steve! I think it's 10-EDO, or something close to it. Lots
> of mileage to be gotten out of 10-EDO, methinks...
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 8:32 AM, martinsj013 <martinsj@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>> At long last I am releasing my first microtonal piece into the wild ...
>>
>> http://soundcloud.com/martinsj013/sirmdbidnud2
>>
>> I have deliberately not said anything about it, as I am very interested to
>> see to what extent it is obvious to you listeners what the tuning is and
>> what I have done / not done with it. However, if nobody wants to play,
>> I'll say something sooner or later.
>>
>> Steve M.
>

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Steve, I second Mike's Beautiful!
>
> I personally enjoyed the development you did during the piece. I can't
> possible guess the tuning though I also enjoyed the tonal use of
> whatever tuning you employed.

Yeah, to add to this, I think that the tonal stuff going on here is
related in some way to negri temperament, although I only mean that
word "tonal" in a handwavy way and not anything scientific. But my
first thought was that the whole thing was in negri temperament, but
an inaccurate tuning of it.

I'm not sure if this piece takes advantage commas vanishing which
would demand it be in 10-EDO, but I'd be very interested to hear what
it sounds like if retuned to some other tuning for negri[10], like in
19-EDO or 29-EDO for instance...

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> Yeah, to add to this, I think that the tonal stuff going on here is
> related in some way to negri temperament, although I only mean that
> word "tonal" in a handwavy way and not anything scientific. But my
> first thought was that the whole thing was in negri temperament, but
> an inaccurate tuning of it.

It definitely has a lot of sLs tetrachords dividing approximate 4/3s, and it sounds like s and L are closer in size than the 1 3 1 tetrachords of 12edo. Everything I'm hearing is consistent with 10edo.

> I'm not sure if this piece takes advantage commas vanishing which
> would demand it be in 10-EDO, but I'd be very interested to hear what
> it sounds like if retuned to some other tuning for negri[10], like in
> 19-EDO or 29-EDO for instance...

Ditto. =)

Keenan

Things I'm hearing:
-Lots of sLs tetrachords
-4/3's and 3/2's that are slightly-to-moderately discordant
-no clear major or minor 3rds
-no steps smaller than a semitone
-generally discordant harmony, with the more concordant harmonies suggesting identities of 7, 13, and/or 15.

If it's not something close to 10-ET, my ears are worthless.

-Igs

--- In tuning@...m, "martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> At long last I am releasing my first microtonal piece into the wild ...
>
> http://soundcloud.com/martinsj013/sirmdbidnud2
>
> I have deliberately not said anything about it, as I am very interested to see to what extent it is obvious to you listeners what the tuning is and what I have done / not done with it. However, if nobody wants to play, I'll say something sooner or later.
>
> Steve M.
>

Hmm...no, I'm playing around with 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 in 10-ET, and it's not right. The semitones are too wide. Maybe 23? I'm gonna try a few different tunings of this scale.

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Things I'm hearing:
> -Lots of sLs tetrachords
> -4/3's and 3/2's that are slightly-to-moderately discordant
> -no clear major or minor 3rds
> -no steps smaller than a semitone
> -generally discordant harmony, with the more concordant harmonies suggesting identities of 7, 13, and/or 15.
>
> If it's not something close to 10-ET, my ears are worthless.
>
> -Igs
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> > At long last I am releasing my first microtonal piece into the wild ...
> >
> > http://soundcloud.com/martinsj013/sirmdbidnud2
> >
> > I have deliberately not said anything about it, as I am very interested to see to what extent it is obvious to you listeners what the tuning is and what I have done / not done with it. However, if nobody wants to play, I'll say something sooner or later.
> >
> > Steve M.
> >
>

My money's on 13 or 23. Too close to call, given the lack of sustained chords. It's definitely in some sLsLsLs scale, though, with a small step somewhere between 90 and 110 cents.

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm...no, I'm playing around with 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 in 10-ET, and it's not right. The semitones are too wide. Maybe 23? I'm gonna try a few different tunings of this scale.
>
> -Igs
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@> wrote:
> >
> > Things I'm hearing:
> > -Lots of sLs tetrachords
> > -4/3's and 3/2's that are slightly-to-moderately discordant
> > -no clear major or minor 3rds
> > -no steps smaller than a semitone
> > -generally discordant harmony, with the more concordant harmonies suggesting identities of 7, 13, and/or 15.
> >
> > If it's not something close to 10-ET, my ears are worthless.
> >
> > -Igs
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > > At long last I am releasing my first microtonal piece into the wild ...
> > >
> > > http://soundcloud.com/martinsj013/sirmdbidnud2
> > >
> > > I have deliberately not said anything about it, as I am very interested to see to what extent it is obvious to you listeners what the tuning is and what I have done / not done with it. However, if nobody wants to play, I'll say something sooner or later.
> > >
> > > Steve M.
> > >
> >
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm...no, I'm playing around with 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 in 10-ET, and it's not right. The semitones are too wide. Maybe 23? I'm gonna try a few different tunings of this scale.

First of all, thanks to Mike, Chris, Igs and Keenan for your comments. As always, I am impressed by what you guys can hear!

Before I reveal, can I ask Igs - what did you mean by "the semitones are too wide" - those you are trying are wider than the ones you hear in my piece, or those in my piece are too wide for your liking, or something else?

Steve M.

On Nov 30, 2012, at 2:21 PM,
cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

My money's on 13 or 23. Too close to call, given the lack of sustained
chords. It's definitely in some sLsLsLs scale, though, with a small step
somewhere between 90 and 110 cents.

-Igs

It's definitely not only the notes of sLsLsLs though. For instance, the
melody is two sLs tetrachords that are 3/2 apart from one another, which by
itself could be sLsLsLs. However, then he plays the melody again where each
note is harmonized below by a 4/3, and everything is moving by parallel
fourths. When he plays the upper sLs tetrachord with the parallel 4/3's
harmonized below it, it adds new notes that aren't in sLsLsLs alone.

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
> Before I reveal, can I ask Igs - what did you mean by "the semitones are too wide" - those you are trying are wider than the ones you hear in my piece, or those in my piece are too wide for your liking, or something else?

OK, I am being slow - Igs' next post says he hears "small step 90-110 cents", so he must mean 10edo's 120 cents is too wide.

S.

Correct. I tried playing along to a couple parts, and could tell that the little Db-C-B-C motives didn't sound right in 10-ET--the Db-B was too wide, too septimal-sounding.

Another possibility I didn't consider, but now Mike's got me thinking, is that this is in 26-ET, and you're playing some parallel 3L4s 13-ET scales. I did think I heard some 600-cent tritones in there....

So, are you gonna reveal it yet?

_igs

--- In tuning@...m, "martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@> wrote:
> > Before I reveal, can I ask Igs - what did you mean by "the semitones are too wide" - those you are trying are wider than the ones you hear in my piece, or those in my piece are too wide for your liking, or something else?
>
> OK, I am being slow - Igs' next post says he hears "small step 90-110 cents", so he must mean 10edo's 120 cents is too wide.
>
> S.
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
> ... the little Db-C-B-C motives didn't sound right in 10-ET--the Db-B was too wide, too septimal-sounding.
> ... I did think I heard some 600-cent tritones in there...
> So, are you gonna reveal it yet?

Yes; actually it is 10-edo. Everyone spotted the sLsLsLs MOS, in this case 1212121 generated by 3\10. There were some things I did intentionally, like modulate briefly up by one, two generators and back, and later down by one, and back. And some others.

But I am not sure about other things - like was I really using the 7s, 13s and 15s? Or was I just using 2:3 and 3:4 despite the lack of accuracy? I avoided 0-3-6, but used 0-6-13, 0-6-7-13, 0-6-9-13, etc. I am not sure if I used a comma pump, but I do think it works best in 10-edo. I have tried it in other tunings (e.g. 2525252 from 7\23 and 3535353 from 8\27) using a chain of 5g up and 4g down, and noticed that there is at least one bad place where I guess I go across the break in the chain.

Steve M.

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:03 PM, martinsj013 <martinsj@...> wrote:
>
> But I am not sure about other things - like was I really using the 7s, 13s
> and 15s? Or was I just using 2:3 and 3:4 despite the lack of accuracy?

I'm not sure I understand the question. What intervals are ambiguous
between being made up of 3/2 or 4/3 vs being some ratios of 7/13/15? I
don't understand how you've arrived at a decision where the set of
intervals that you need to choose between is 3/2, 4/3, or something
involving 7s, 13's and 15's.

-Mike

Well dang! Guess my ears are worth just about crap.

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@> wrote:
> > ... the little Db-C-B-C motives didn't sound right in 10-ET--the Db-B was too wide, too septimal-sounding.
> > ... I did think I heard some 600-cent tritones in there...
> > So, are you gonna reveal it yet?
>
> Yes; actually it is 10-edo. Everyone spotted the sLsLsLs MOS, in this case 1212121 generated by 3\10. There were some things I did intentionally, like modulate briefly up by one, two generators and back, and later down by one, and back. And some others.
>
> But I am not sure about other things - like was I really using the 7s, 13s and 15s? Or was I just using 2:3 and 3:4 despite the lack of accuracy? I avoided 0-3-6, but used 0-6-13, 0-6-7-13, 0-6-9-13, etc. I am not sure if I used a comma pump, but I do think it works best in 10-edo. I have tried it in other tunings (e.g. 2525252 from 7\23 and 3535353 from 8\27) using a chain of 5g up and 4g down, and noticed that there is at least one bad place where I guess I go across the break in the chain.
>
> Steve M.
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Well dang! Guess my ears are worth just about crap.

I have the stupidest ears around. All they ever hear is sound.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Well dang! Guess my ears are worth just about crap.

Well, no, look what you wrote in #105447 ... as long as "something close to 10-edo" encompasses "10-edo"!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand the question. What intervals are ambiguous
> between being made up of 3/2 or 4/3 vs being some ratios of 7/13/15? I
> don't understand how you've arrived at a decision where the set of
> intervals that you need to choose between is 3/2, 4/3, or something
> involving 7s, 13's and 15's.

Mike,
sorry, I've not been very clear - it wasn't a choice between two alternatives or an ambiguity about any one interval - I'll try again:

Given that I have used 0-4-6-10 as 6:8:9:12 (at least I think I have, and others heard it too), and given that the MOS is of size 7 as in common practice, I wonder if I have ended up just using the other notes as tetrachord-fillers without fully exploiting their actual ratios as such.

S.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
> Mike,
> sorry, I've not been very clear - it wasn't a choice between two alternatives or an ambiguity about any one interval ...

Mike, and all,
I forgot to ask: does your suggestion re Negri still hold, after my "reveal"? From what I read in the wiki, the generator would be 3\29, so the 10-MOS would be 333333332, so I'd have to choose where to break the chain and make my 7-MOS. Coming from my angle, I could have 9\29 generator leading to 2727272 MOS - I've just tried this and it doesn't sound good with my piece, and it is not Negri (I assume).

I have some more questions, I couldn't find the answers in the wiki:
* What is the patent val for Negri?
* What temperament or class or family includes the 3\10 generator and what is its patent val? (I can only find names for the MOS patterns - 3L4s-mosh, sLsLsLs-bish)

Steve M.

"martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013"
> <martinsj@...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> > sorry, I've not been very clear - it wasn't a choice
> > between two alternatives or an ambiguity about any one
> > interval ...
>
> Mike, and all,
> I forgot to ask: does your suggestion re Negri still
> hold, after my "reveal"? From what I read in the wiki,
> the generator would be 3\29, so the 10-MOS would be
> 333333332, so I'd have to choose where to break the chain
> and make my 7-MOS. Coming from my angle, I could have
> 9\29 generator leading to 2727272 MOS - I've just tried
> this and it doesn't sound good with my piece, and it is
> not Negri (I assume).
>
> I have some more questions, I couldn't find the answers
> in the wiki:
> * What is the patent val for Negri?
> * What temperament or class or family includes the 3\10
> generator and what is its patent val? (I can only find
> names for the MOS patterns - 3L4s-mosh, sLsLsLs-bish)

Negri is this:

http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=7&ets=10+29

The 3\10 generator gives the MOS pattern for Mohajira, but
the mappings of 5 and 7 are different, so it's called
either Sharp or Dichotic:

http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=11&ets=10+7

I've also used the 7 from 10 pattern with Miracle
temperament, with the pitches flexible to fit the harmony.

http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=11&ets=10p+31

What's the big deal with patent vals?

Graham

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
> Negri is this:
>
> http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=7&ets=10+29
>
> The 3\10 generator gives the MOS pattern for Mohajira, but
> the mappings of 5 and 7 are different, so it's called
> either Sharp or Dichotic:
>
> http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=11&ets=10+7
>
> I've also used the 7 from 10 pattern with Miracle
> temperament, with the pitches flexible to fit the harmony.
>
> http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=11&ets=10p+31

Thanks, Graham, I'll take a while to make sure I understand this.

> What's the big deal with patent vals?

If that's a question to me, it's probably due to a misapprehension on my part. For a start, having read a bit further, I realise I probably should have asked instead for "the vals for an appropriate collection of commas", since a patent val can only be for an EDO (right?).

Steve M.

Steve M. wrote:

> > What's the big deal with patent vals?
>
> If that's a question to me, it's probably due to a misapprehension
> on my part. For a start, having read a bit further, I realise I
> probably should have asked instead for "the vals for an appropriate
> collection of commas", since a patent val can only be for an EDO
> (right?).

Any single val defines a rank 1 temperament. An EDO is not a
temperament, but a tuning. That is to say, an EDO is completely
characterized by its step size, which can be expressed as a
log-fraction of the octave. A rank 1 temperament is completely
characterized by a val. 12-EDO is compatible with any val
beginning with 12.

<12 19 28| is called the "patent" val for 12-EDO because each
prime is mapped to its best tuning. A different val is
<12 19 27|, where 4:5:6 triads are tuned 0-300-700 cents.
Obviously this is a bizarre tuning for the 4:5:6 triad, but
in some EDOs the val giving the most accurate tuning is not
patent (when compound intervals like 5/3 etc. are considered).

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
> Any single val defines a rank 1 temperament. An EDO is not a
> temperament, but a tuning. That is to say, an EDO is completely
> characterized by its step size, which can be expressed as a
> log-fraction of the octave. A rank 1 temperament is completely
> characterized by a val. 12-EDO is compatible with any val
> beginning with 12.
>
> <12 19 28| is called the "patent" val for 12-EDO because each
> prime is mapped to its best tuning. A different val is
> <12 19 27|, where 4:5:6 triads are tuned 0-300-700 cents.
> Obviously this is a bizarre tuning for the 4:5:6 triad, but
> in some EDOs the val giving the most accurate tuning is not
> patent (when compound intervals like 5/3 etc. are considered).

Carl, thanks, I think I'm getting this now. Have also found the Dicot family page on the wiki and played with Graham's site more. Most likely candidates seem to be Sharp, Dichotic and Beatles.

Steve.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
> Yes; actually it is 10-edo. Everyone spotted the sLsLsLs MOS, in this case 1212121 generated by 3\10.
> ... I do think it works best in 10-edo ... chain of 5g up and 4g down ... one bad place where I guess I go across the break in the chain.

I have analysed the piece a bit further (clearly, a bit further than I did when I wrote it!) and conclude that it really does need to be 10-edo; reasoning in terms of generators "g" as follows:

* in the sLsLsLs MOS, s represents -3g; L represents +4g; therefore runnning up the scale moves through -3+4-3+4-3+4-3=0 generators (of course, because that's how the MOS is defined).
* we can also move by other intervals eg T=L+s which represents +1g.
* the middle section goes like this: -T -T +s -T +s -T (where I've eliminated moves that cancel out)
* in terms of generators this is -1 -1 -3 -1 -3 -1 = -10 i.e. does not return to "home" unless -10=0. Or, we tolerate a mis-tuning of one of the moves.
* although this is presented in terms of just the melody, the intervals in the harmony support this analysis. They would also make a mis-tuning even more noticeable.

I think this is just a different presentation of some of the RMP concepts and furthermore has probably been done before. The interesting point is that, while an equivalent calculation could have been done using monzos and vals, I wasn't consciously using a mapping, so I don't know what monzos and vals to use in that version of the calculation.

Steve M.

PS analogous situation in meantone - LLsLLLs =>+2+2-5+2+2+2-5=0 but LLLLLL=+2+2+2+2+2+2=12. I have also had a think about how the usual comma pump would be described in these terms, and it makes sense, but I'll spare you the details.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
> PS analogous situation in meantone - LLsLLLs =>+2+2-5+2+2+2-5=0 but LLLLLL=+2+2+2+2+2+2=12.

Oh, and LsLsLsLs=+2-5+2-5+2-5+2-5=-12.

Does anyone else experience this: I work on a piece in real time at the keyboard (I use Scala's "relay" function) and it sounds OK; then I sequence it in re-tuned MIDI (again using Scala) and playback with Timidity; only to find that it sounds much more discordant than I expected. Of course it could be down to differences between Scala's playback and Timidity's; but could it be something to do with different modes of listening? Any thoughts?

PS I'm working on my "second piece", and have thought I was getting close to finishing but then I am not so sure ...

PPS Mike B mentioned hints of Negri in my first piece; I am also experimenting with re-tuning it to see if that works.

"martinsj013" <martinsj@...> wrote:
> Does anyone else experience this: I work on a piece in real time at the keyboard (I use Scala's "relay" function) and it sounds OK; then I sequence it in re-tuned MIDI (again using Scala) and playback with Timidity; only to find that it sounds much more discordant than I expected. Of course it could be down to differences between Scala's playback and Timidity's; but could it be something to do with different modes of listening? Any thoughts?

I'd normally assume the tuning's broken at one end. Have
you tried recording the live output to see if it's
different when you listen back? Can you use live MIDI with
Timidity so that you can match timbres? And are you using
Timidity with pitch bends or MTS messages?

Graham

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
Thanks, Graham.
> Have you tried recording the live output to see if it's different when you listen back?
No; I'll try this.

> Can you use live MIDI with Timidity so that you can match timbres?
I think I already am (and I contradicted myself in my post); I'll check.

> And are you using Timidity with pitch bends or MTS messages?
Pitch bends.

Steve M.