Re : [tuning] Digest Number 7630

2b. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute   
    From: Ryan Avella
2c. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute   
    From: Keenan Pepper
2d. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute   
    From: Mike Battaglia

Hello and many thanks for your advises.

I will use the 2/7 mesotonic temperament, as it seems to be quite adapted to my issue; and then I'll tell you if it fits to my ear.
But...

I just realised that I could also use forked-fingerings to have double-notes, and so I will have to change the size and position of the holes. This is a different, but still complex step.
I will try to have special fingerings to fit with any one of the notes of the other flute...
My aim will still be to use as pure intervals as possible, and I gess My work is not done yet!!!
Thankyou again;
jerome Desigaud

________________________________
De : "tuning@yahoogroups.com" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
À : tuning@yahoogroups.com
Envoyé le : Jeudi 24 mai 2012 12h18
I
Objet : [tuning] Digest Number 7630

There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Septimal tunings in traditional music cultures?   
    From:
hstraub64
1b. Re: Septimal tunings in traditional music cultures?   
    From: Carl Lumma
1c. Re: Septimal tunings in traditional music cultures?   
    From: lobawad

2a. differencial coherence for double-flute   
    From: Jérôme Désigaud
2b. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute   
    From: Ryan Avella
2c. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute   
    From: Keenan Pepper
2d. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute   
    From: Mike Battaglia

Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Septimal tunings in traditional music cultures?
    Posted by: "hstraub64" straub@... hstraub64
    Date: Wed May 23,
2012 12:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> "hstraub64" <straub@> wrote:
>
> > Right?
>
> Unfortunately not.
>
> In my experience, people claiming indiginous use of
> extended JI never have the one thing that could
> establish their theory beyond doubt: a recording.
>
> In point of fact, if extended JI were to come from
> somewhere, we'd expect it from the only indigenous
> peoples to use 5-limit JI systematically: Europeans.
> And, it did:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEBSQSA
>

OK - so short answer to my question is: no - at least not melodically...
--
Hans Straub

Messages in
this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Septimal tunings in traditional music cultures?
    Posted by: "Carl Lumma" carl@... clumma
    Date: Wed May 23, 2012 12:57 pm ((PDT))

"hstraub64" <straub@...> wrote:

> OK - so short answer to my question is: no - at least not
> melodically...

Well... :)

I guess we should say, the earliest evidence of a musical
form using septimal harmony seems to be for barbershop.
Zawose was born in 1938, so barbershop predates him, though
not by much (actually it is the same year SPEBSQSA was
founded... 7-limit intonation in barbershop has improved
considerably since that time, but early recordings show it
did exist already when O.C. Cash founded the society).

It would be interesting to read a
biography of Zawose to
see how he learned his trade.  It may be that extended JI
was used in his tribe before him - I'm just not able to
find any solid evidence of this.

Aside: Hey! Get that thing out of there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a71aACAWri4&#t=0m20s

The highland pipes were mentioned.  My recording circa 1991
is definitely 7-limit.  Is it harmonic use?  Not the way we
usually think of "harmony", though when pieces are moving
slowly, some obvious 7:4 dyads can be heard.  Dave Keenan
suggested this tuning practice may be fairly recent for the
highland pipes.  I don't know the history.

Maqam (Arabic, Persian, etc) intonation has been vigorously
debated here.  Ancient Greek theorists were fascinated with
numbers and obtained complex ratios with procedures like
the
"freshman sum" (mediant).  This may have been necessary for
want of logarithms.  There's little evidence musicians took
these writings as anything more than bearing plans -- that
is, not to the point of accurately performing these ratios.
Maqam music is an improvised form that uses intonation
expressively.  The practice clearly draws on a richer
variety of basic scales than does Western music, and some
interval(s) smaller than a whole tone is necessary to express
them all.  But it doesn't seem there has ever been consensus
on exactly which interval(s) those should be (present day
included).  The maqamat were passed down aurally, from
teacher to student, and recordings I've heard and analyzed
don't present evidence of a consistent use of > 5-limit
intervals.

Keenan Pepper is our resident expert on Indonesian intonation.
Daniel Wolf and others have commented in the
past.  I have
never heard extended JI in Indonesian music.  The "American
gamelan school" (Lou Harrison, Other Music, etc.) *does* use
extended JI, and it doesn't sound like its traditional
counterpart.

-Carl

Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Septimal tunings in traditional music cultures?
    Posted by: "lobawad" lobawad@... lobawad
    Date: Wed May 23, 2012 5:05 pm ((PDT))

The chromatic tetrachord of Al Farabi can be demonstrated on a fretless instrument in this way:

Play a pure fourth.
Place a finger halfway between this fourth and the nut, play.
Place a finger halfway between that point and the nut, play.
Play the open string.

That is it- strings tuned to open fourths will give
you conjuct
tetrachords, tuned to fifths, disjunct.

Now, if we look at the extreme simplicity of this, and consider that
Al Farabi was noted as practising musician, and that his book on
music includes illustrations and descriptions of musical instruments
as well as theory, surely Occam's razor favors the idea that this chromatic tetrachord represents an actual musical practice.

The tetrachord is 1/1, 16/15, 8/7, 4/3

and is supposedly still in use, see John Chalmer's Divisions of the Tetrachord for references.

As to accurarcy of intonation in practice (placing ideally thin fingers perfectly on points measured to these ratios would make for slightly flat intonation on a real instrument, for example), I would suggest playing, say, an oud and judging for yourself whether the instrument sings more when playing the ratios purely as you can.

Regardless of the perfection of the intonation, it seems clear to me
that the burden of proof lies on the claim that this tetrachord was not in actual use. Why would something so simple, teachable, allegedly still in use, lovely sounding, documented by a practising musician and organologist, NOT have been in use?

Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. differencial coherence for double-flute
    Posted by: "Jérôme Désigaud" jeromedesigaud@yahoo.fr jeromedesigaud
    Date: Wed May 23, 2012 1:02 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

I need some advise to tune my double flutes; if anybody likes to have a new puzzle.

This is two melodic flutes, I play with one hand on each flute. Some notes are missing so we can put
bad intervals there.

The flutes are high in pitch and the difference tones are very loud.

That's why I need a "differencial coherence" in my scale.
My lowest flute plays C-D-E-F-G
And the highest flute plays G-A-B-C-D. I would love that all combinations between the 2 flutes would generate beautiful difference tones ;)

As a sum-up:

I would love perfect fifths there:

C-G; D-A;E-B; F-C
And beautiful fourth there:
D-G; E-A
Why not pure major thirds there:
F-A; G-B
And pure minor thirds there:

E-G
and as a conclusion beautiful sixths there:
C-A; D-B; F-D

If anybody can help me on this question, even help me to take the question on the right way...I will be thankful for the rest of my days!
Jerome

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute
   
Posted by: "Ryan Avella" domeofatonement@... domeofatonement
    Date: Wed May 23, 2012 2:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jérôme Désigaud <jeromedesigaud@...> wrote:
>
> I would love perfect fifths there:
>
> C-G; D-A;E-B; F-C
> And beautiful fourth there:
> D-G; E-A
> Why not pure major thirds there:
> F-A; G-B
> And pure minor thirds there:
>
> E-G
> and as a conclusion beautiful sixths there:
> C-A; D-B; F-D
>
> If anybody can help me on this question, even help me to take the question on the right way...I will be thankful for the rest of my days!
> Jerome
>

If you want F-C-G-D-A-E to be tuned by perfect
fifths/fourths, and you also want F-D to be a just major sixth, then meantone tempering is probably your best bet.  (May I also suggest superpythagorean tuning as a viable option, which will make F-D closer to the nice 12/7 ratio)

Here are the cents figures for 2/7-comma meantone, which is a decent meantone tuning:

C - 0
D - 191.62
E - 383.24
F - 504.19
G - 695.81
A - 887.43
B - 1079.05
C' - 1200

And frequencies, starting at C (261.63 Hz)

C - 261.63 Hz
D - 292.25 Hz
E - 326.45 Hz
F - 350.07 Hz
G - 391.05 Hz
A - 436.82 Hz
B - 487.94 Hz
C' - 523.25 Hz

Ryan

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute
    Posted by: "Keenan Pepper" keenanpepper@... keenan_pepper
    Date: Wed May 23, 2012 3:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Avella" <domeofatonement@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jérôme Désigaud <jeromedesigaud@> wrote:
> >
> > I would love perfect fifths there:
> >
> > C-G; D-A;E-B; F-C
> > And beautiful fourth there:
> > D-G; E-A
> > Why not pure major thirds there:
> > F-A; G-B
> > And pure minor thirds there:
> >
> > E-G
> > and as a conclusion beautiful sixths there:
> > C-A; D-B; F-D
> >
> > If anybody can help me on this question, even help me to
take the question on the right way...I will be thankful for the rest of my days!
> > Jerome
> >
>
>
> If you want F-C-G-D-A-E to be tuned by perfect fifths/fourths, and you also want F-D to be a just major sixth, then meantone tempering is probably your best bet.  (May I also suggest superpythagorean tuning as a viable option, which will make F-D closer to the nice 12/7 ratio)
>
>
> Here are the cents figures for 2/7-comma meantone, which is a decent meantone tuning:
>
> C - 0
> D - 191.62
> E - 383.24
> F - 504.19
> G - 695.81
> A - 887.43
> B - 1079.05
> C' - 1200
>
> And frequencies, starting at C (261.63 Hz)
>
> C - 261.63 Hz
> D - 292.25 Hz
> E - 326.45 Hz
> F - 350.07 Hz
> G - 391.05 Hz
> A - 436.82 Hz
> B - 487.94 Hz
> C' - 523.25 Hz

I agree 100% with Ryan;
it's obvious that meantone tempering is what you want. With just intonation it would be mathematically impossible to get most of those consonances at the same time.

You shouldn't worry at all that it's temperament rather than just intonation, because meantone is an accurate temperament and it's going to sound more or less pure. In fact, depending on the specific design of the double flute, a phenomenon known as injection locking or injection pulling may occur that causes the two pitches to adjust to each other slightly to make the current interval more pure.

So yeah, meantone is the answer. I personally would have given 1/4-comma meantone but the 2/7-comma meantone given above is nearly indistinguishable; they're both good meantones.

Keenan

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: differencial coherence for double-flute
 
  Posted by: "Mike Battaglia" battaglia01@... battaglia01
    Date: Wed May 23, 2012 3:22 pm ((PDT))

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@...>
wrote:
>
> You shouldn't worry at all that it's temperament rather than just
> intonation, because meantone is an accurate temperament and it's going to
> sound more or less pure. In fact, depending on the specific design of the
> double flute, a phenomenon known as injection locking or injection pulling
> may occur that causes the two pitches to adjust to each other slightly to
> make the current interval more pure.
>
> So yeah, meantone is the answer. I personally would have given 1/4-comma
> meantone but the 2/7-comma
meantone given above is nearly indistinguishable;
> they're both good meantones.

Yeah, I agree with Keenan here. Also, if you want something a bit more
xenharmonic, you could also try superpyth, which tempers out 64/63
instead of 81/80. Then minor sevenths will be close to 7/4, so
root-fifth-minor 7 triads will be close to 4:6:7. It serves as an
alternate way to intone the usual diatonic scale.

-Mike

Messages in this topic (4)

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