Re: [tuning] Werckmeister III and the Heisenberg Principle

Johnny Reinhard wrote:

>Recently, while speaking with an MD at Pfizer, I learned more of the
>Heisenberg Principle. Essentially, (and I realize many of you know more
>about this than I do), the principle is: the more you study something, the
>more you change what you study.
>
>I got to thinking that the intense study of the different keys of irregular
>temperaments allowed for the recognition of their different "colors" or
>characters. The distinctive interval arrangements give off a gestalt blend,
>that is recognizable with study. It seems to me that the different key
>characteristics may be a result of the Heisenberg Principle.

My degree is not in physics, but your speculation does not agree with my
understanding of the Heisenberg principle. The principle that would explain
the recognition of different keys in irregular temperaments might be called
the learning principle: the more you study something, the more you know
about it. The Heisenberg principle, on the other hand, says (those of you
with physics degrees, please make appropriate corrections) that there is a
limit to how well something can be measured, because the measuring process
changes the characteristic we are measuring by interacting with the object
being measured.

Respectfully yours,

John Link

**************************************************************************
To purchase the CD "Live at Saint Peter's" by the JOHN LINK VOCAL QUINTET,
visit WWW.JOHNLINKMUSIC.COM, or write to johnlink@con2.com.
**************************************************************************

Afmmjr!
I don't think that Heisenberg was presenting a universal that can be applied to all levels
of reality. I believe it has more to do with the necessity of viewing small particles with the
help of photons but the photons themselves change the objects.
On the other hand, the over study of western music (especially between Bach and Wagner)
has lead to its inflated nature of universal importance.
On the other hand our overstudy of intonation will place it in the over inflated nature it
needs to be :):)
I think the perception of the different keys in irregular temperaments has a strong basis in a
psychoacoustical reality beyond accumulated projections, but if what you are saying is that
this influenced later 12 et keys, you are probably right, but more from a built up collective
language. As someone once pointed out, Bach would use accidentals in his chorales based on
the way accidentals were used in the modes. like using C# in dorian, never Db.

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> Recently, while speaking with an MD at Pfizer, I learned more of the
> Heisenberg Principle. Essentially, (and I realize many of you know more
> about this than I do), the principle is: the more you study something, the
> more you change what you study.
>
> I got to thinking that the intense study of the different keys of irregular
> temperaments allowed for the recognition of their different "colors" or
> characters. The distinctive interval arrangements give off a gestalt blend,
> that is recognizable with study. It seems to me that the different key
> characteristics may be a result of the Heisenberg Principle.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@anaphoria.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:32 AM
To: tuning@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Werckmeister III and the Heisenberg Principle

On the other hand, the over study of western music (especially between
Bach and Wagner) has lead to its inflated nature of universal importance.

That may be so, but it is not just the Germanic tradition (Bach - Mozart -
Brahms - Wagner - Strauss). Add in Italian, French, British, Czech, Russian,
Slovak, Armenian, Spanish, and some uniquely American (Afro-American and
Native American included!) elements and you have the full force of Western
music! Given that so many cultures and subcultures have mixed into it, there
*is* a lot more Western music than there is Javanese and Balinese gamelan,
Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indian or Arabic ... maybe even more Western
symphonic music than all other traditions combined.

Quite a few Western composers have incorporated non-Western elements in
their music; my personal favorite is Alan Hovhaness. Indeed, Hovhaness
writes music that one is hard-pressed to pin down to a given culture or
century -- it could as easily have come from the era of Hildegarde Von
Bingen as the 20th century and could have as easily originated in Korea as
in Seattle.

Ed!
It is the over study of the German at the expense of the others that i was speaking. I
thought the rest were mere second rate versions of the great masters :). They are the ones
held up and talked about, analyzed over and over and over again in their flawless glory. No
one uses Miles Davis for instance as the pinnacle of western music (which he might be in many
circles). Slovak music was ignored probably until Bartok, no one speaks of Armenian music
(much less their genocide!) or considers it a part of western music. Native american music was
pretty much wiped out, now we have ennio morricone variations appearing in the chirping of
Carlos Nakai.
I like Alan Hovhaness too. I once was listening to mysterious mountain on the radio at
work and a co-worker came in and started talking about how this reminded him of when he lived
on Mt. Shasta. Neither of us knew the piece and were impressed when we heard the title at the
end. but you are the only one who has mentioned him on this list (glad you did).

I beg to differ with that there is more western music than all the others. maybe written
down but it is oozing out of every crack where there is a human alone or in groups. Music is
something we do like breathing!

> From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@anaphoria.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:32 AM
> To: tuning@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Werckmeister III and the Heisenberg Principle
>
> On the other hand, the over study of western music (especially between
> Bach and Wagner) has lead to its inflated nature of universal importance.
>
> That may be so, but it is not just the Germanic tradition (Bach - Mozart -
> Brahms - Wagner - Strauss). Add in Italian, French, British, Czech, Russian,
> Slovak, Armenian, Spanish, and some uniquely American (Afro-American and
> Native American included!) elements and you have the full force of Western
> music! Given that so many cultures and subcultures have mixed into it, there
> *is* a lot more Western music than there is Javanese and Balinese gamelan,
> Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indian or Arabic ... maybe even more Western
> symphonic music than all other traditions combined.
>
> Quite a few Western composers have incorporated non-Western elements in
> their music; my personal favorite is Alan Hovhaness. Indeed, Hovhaness
> writes music that one is hard-pressed to pin down to a given culture or
> century -- it could as easily have come from the era of Hildegarde Von
> Bingen as the 20th century and could have as easily originated in Korea as
> in Seattle.
>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

My degrees are in physics and I have done work in quantum mechanics so it
pains me to read about these "folk versions" of Heisenberg's Uncertainty
Principle which have little (if anything) to do with its actual statement.
I am afraid. What it says, roughly, is that certain pairs of characteristics
of given physical systems (typically very small physical systems obeying the
laws of quantum mechanics) cannot be measured simultaneously with definite
accuracy because the measurement of one of them affects the value of the
other one. Typical pairs of variables (for a quantum particle for example)
which are connected by this principle are position and linear momentum or
energy and time of flight...

The whole idea that observation may alter what is observed is not a law of
physics but, in my opinion, an item of common sense. Its application to the
to the qualitative perception of intervals is a very interesting question,
I am sure, but at the interface of physics and psychology where there are
no established principle to guide us, yet.

-Joao Leao

> Johnny Reinhard wrote:
>
> >Recently, while speaking with an MD at Pfizer, I learned more of the
> >Heisenberg Principle. Essentially, (and I realize many of you know more
> >about this than I do), the principle is: the more you study something, the
> >more you change what you study.
> >
> >I got to thinking that the intense study of the different keys of irregular
> >temperaments allowed for the recognition of their different "colors" or
> >characters. The distinctive interval arrangements give off a gestalt blend,
> >that is recognizable with study. It seems to me that the different key
> >characteristics may be a result of the Heisenberg Principle.
>
> My degree is not in physics, but your speculation does not agree with my
> understanding of the Heisenberg principle. The principle that would explain
> the recognition of different keys in irregular temperaments might be called
> the learning principle: the more you study something, the more you know
> about it. The Heisenberg principle, on the other hand, says (those of you
> with physics degrees, please make appropriate corrections) that there is a
> limit to how well something can be measured, because the measuring process
> changes the characteristic we are measuring by interacting with the object
> being measured.
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> John Link
>
> **************************************************************************
> To purchase the CD "Live at Saint Peter's" by the JOHN LINK VOCAL QUINTET,
> visit WWW.JOHNLINKMUSIC.COM, or write to johnlink@con2.com.
> **************************************************************************
>
>
>
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--

Joao Pedro Leao ::: jleao@cfa.harvard.edu
Computer Systems Manager - Central Engineering
Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
1815 Massachussetts Av. , Cambridge MA 02140
Phone: (617)-496-7990 extension 124
----------------------------------------------
"All generalizations are abusive (specially this one!)"
-------------------------------------------------------

Johnny Reinhard wrote,

>>Recently, while speaking with an MD at Pfizer, I learned more of the
>>Heisenberg Principle. Essentially, (and I realize many of you know more
>>about this than I do), the principle is: the more you study something,
the
>>more you change what you study.
>
>>I got to thinking that the intense study of the different keys of
irregular
>>temperaments allowed for the recognition of their different "colors" or
>>characters. The distinctive interval arrangements give off a gestalt
blend,
>>that is recognizable with study. It seems to me that the different key
>>characteristics may be a result of the Heisenberg Principle.

John Link wrote,

>My degree is not in physics,

(mine is)

>but your speculation does not agree with my
>understanding of the Heisenberg principle. The principle that would explain
>the recognition of different keys in irregular temperaments might be called
>the learning principle: the more you study something, the more you know
>about it. The Heisenberg principle, on the other hand, says (those of you
>with physics degrees, please make appropriate corrections) that there is a
>limit to how well something can be measured, because the measuring process
>changes the characteristic we are measuring by interacting with the object
>being measured.

That's accurate enough for the present purpose. One note: the Heisenberg
principle operates only on extremely small units of action, far smaller than
those involved in everyday life or anywhere outside quantum physics
experiments.

My only point is that certain things we tuners take for granted are possible
only from repeated listenings, focus, concentration, and retention of very
subtle pitch relationships.

When LaMonte Young began playing the "Well-Tuned Piano" in Just Intonation,
it was years before he noticed the harmonic clouds that are generated. It
had to be pointed out to him. Similarly, Werckmeister might not have evolved
to the point where he could distinguish each key the way Kirnberger would be
able to.

Sorry to rattle the cage of the Physics scholars.

Johnny Reinhard
AFMM

Johnny!
This supports my view that it takes a period of time to really hear what a tuning is
doing! I am sure at some point we might have enough paper formulas to predict everything that
happens in a tuning. When we get there we will probably notice that the calculations take
longer than the repeated listenings :)

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> My only point is that certain things we tuners take for granted are possible
> only from repeated listenings, focus, concentration, and retention of very
> subtle pitch relationships.
>
> When LaMonte Young began playing the "Well-Tuned Piano" in Just Intonation,
> it was years before he noticed the harmonic clouds that are generated. It
> had to be pointed out to him. Similarly, Werckmeister might not have evolved
> to the point where he could distinguish each key the way Kirnberger would be
> able to.
>
> Sorry to rattle the cage of the Physics scholars.
>
> Johnny Reinhard
> AFMM
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Old school buds here:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4057/1/_/239029/_/960308450/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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> tuning-digest@egroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@egroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com