Quartonic

What should be done with the naming conflict between Quartonic family/temperaments, tempering out 36/35 and quartonic temperament, the 53&80 temperament?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> What should be done with the naming conflict between Quartonic family/temperaments,
> tempering out 36/35 and quartonic temperament, the 53&80 temperament?

Where did the name come from, what does it mean, why was it applied to each of these, and how did this conflict arise?

-Igs

I never liked the name quartonic for the 36/35 temperaments, really. I
always thought that would be better as the dominant family or something.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2012, at 10:15 AM, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

What should be done with the naming conflict between Quartonic
family/temperaments, tempering out 36/35 and quartonic temperament, the
53&80 temperament?

I think "dominant" belongs more to 64/63, cuz that's what makes (4/3)^2 = 7/4.

36/35 is what makes 6/5 = 7/6 and 5/4 = 9/7, a behavior that seems most prominent in 12-TET.

For some reason, there are two pages on the xenwiki describing the same thing:
http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Quartonic+family
http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Quartonic+temperaments

These should be merged. We should probably re-name the family in the process, too. On its own, the comma corresponds to the rank-3 3&4&5 temperament...anything clever we can do with the sequence 3, 4, and 5?

We could also name it after one of the various rank-2 temperaments it crops up in, like ripple, nickel, beep, etc. We could also go off of one of the ETs that makes prominent use of the comma, like 9, 12, or 21. Hmm...21&12, August temperament, makes me think 2112, the Rush album...maybe 36/35 is the Rush comma?

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> I never liked the name quartonic for the 36/35 temperaments, really. I
> always thought that would be better as the dominant family or something.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 19, 2012, at 10:15 AM, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> What should be done with the naming conflict between Quartonic
> family/temperaments, tempering out 36/35 and quartonic temperament, the
> 53&80 temperament?
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> I think "dominant" belongs more to 64/63, cuz that's what makes (4/3)^2 = 7/4.
>
> 36/35 is what makes 6/5 = 7/6 and 5/4 = 9/7, a behavior that seems most prominent in 12-TET.
>
> For some reason, there are two pages on the xenwiki describing the same thing:
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Quartonic+family
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Quartonic+temperaments
>
> These should be merged.

One is rank three, and one is rank two. Changing the names would require changing links, but Graham wouldn't need to do anything.

Igs wrote

> Where did the name come from, what does it mean, why was it applied to > each of these, and how did this
> conflict arise?

I'm not an expert on the naming history but I suppose that the name for the 3D family was chosen because 36/35 can be called a quarter-tone in some contexts.
Why the same name was used for an unrelated 2D temperament, I have no idea. And I personally wouldn't call that one "quartonic" at all. A very handy generator is 2 steps of 53-equal, or the 26.5th root of 2/1. If we found a possible name reflecting this fact, that would do much better, I think. I'm not sure, however, how many sources or documents or temperament listings already refer to this temperament as "quartonic".

Petr

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Petr Parízek <petrparizek2000@...> wrote:
>
> Igs wrote
>
> > Where did the name come from, what does it mean, why was it applied to
> > each of these, and how did this
> > conflict arise?
>
> I'm not an expert on the naming history but I suppose that the name for the
> 3D family was chosen because 36/35 can be called a quarter-tone in some
> contexts.
> Why the same name was used for an unrelated 2D temperament, I have no idea.
> And I personally wouldn't call that one "quartonic" at all. A very handy
> generator is 2 steps of 53-equal, or the 26.5th root of 2/1. If we found a
> possible name reflecting this fact, that would do much better, I think.

Yes, 36/35 is known as the "septimal quarter-tone", and the "quartonic family" is called that because 36/35 is *tempered out*.

The unrelated 2\53 temperament is called "quartonic" because the *generator* is a tempered 36/35.

So they're both related to 36/35, but in completely different ways. I don't think "quartonic" is a very good name for either of them.

> I'm
> not sure, however, how many sources or documents or temperament listings
> already refer to this temperament as "quartonic".

Not many, I can guarantee you. We'd just have to clean up a few references on the wiki.

Keenan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...> wrote:

> So they're both related to 36/35, but in completely different ways. I don't think "quartonic" is a very good name for either of them.

A good name for one of them along with a recommendation we use it would be a good place to start.

On 2/19/2012 10:15 AM, genewardsmith wrote:
> What should be done with the naming conflict between Quartonic
> family/temperaments, tempering out 36/35 and quartonic temperament,
> the 53&80 temperament?

The earliest mention of "quartonic" that I could find is from 2005, in a message "A table of 7-limit MOS" from 7/4/2005 in tuning-math. Searching for the wedgie I found a few earlier mentions of this temperament, but without a name. Obviously the generator is around a quarter tone, but other temperaments like 22f&87 sensa also have quarter-tone-sized generators. But unless someone runs across a prior usage of "quartonic" as a 36/35 temperament, it's probably not worth changing it.

The prominent 36/35 temperaments include dominant, diminished, august, hystrix, armodue, and gorgo. The distinguishing feature of this group is that 7/6 is equivalent to 6/5, which means a major-minor seventh is the same as a 7-limit tetrad. If we call this 7/6 ~ 6/5 interval a "mean minor third" (as it falls in between minor and subminor and approximates both of them), similarly to how "meantone" is based on using the same tempered interval to approximate 9/8 and 10/9, something like "meanminor" could be a name for the 36/35 temperament category.

The unfortunate thing about a name like "quartonic" is that there's a lot of different quarter tones, so it doesn't tell you much about it, and you could either be tempering it out or using it as a generator. You might as well call them something arbitrary that starts with Q, like quark, quagmire, quasar, querulous, or queasy.

Don't forget beep! Beep is the lowest-badness 7-limit temperament with this comma in the kernel.

I'm gonna stick my neck out and say let's call the 36/35 family the "beep family".

-Igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
>
> On 2/19/2012 10:15 AM, genewardsmith wrote:
> > What should be done with the naming conflict between Quartonic
> > family/temperaments, tempering out 36/35 and quartonic temperament,
> > the 53&80 temperament?
>
> The earliest mention of "quartonic" that I could find is from 2005, in a
> message "A table of 7-limit MOS" from 7/4/2005 in tuning-math. Searching
> for the wedgie I found a few earlier mentions of this temperament, but
> without a name. Obviously the generator is around a quarter tone, but
> other temperaments like 22f&87 sensa also have quarter-tone-sized
> generators. But unless someone runs across a prior usage of "quartonic"
> as a 36/35 temperament, it's probably not worth changing it.
>
> The prominent 36/35 temperaments include dominant, diminished, august,
> hystrix, armodue, and gorgo. The distinguishing feature of this group is
> that 7/6 is equivalent to 6/5, which means a major-minor seventh is the
> same as a 7-limit tetrad. If we call this 7/6 ~ 6/5 interval a "mean
> minor third" (as it falls in between minor and subminor and approximates
> both of them), similarly to how "meantone" is based on using the same
> tempered interval to approximate 9/8 and 10/9, something like
> "meanminor" could be a name for the 36/35 temperament category.
>
> The unfortunate thing about a name like "quartonic" is that there's a
> lot of different quarter tones, so it doesn't tell you much about it,
> and you could either be tempering it out or using it as a generator. You
> might as well call them something arbitrary that starts with Q, like
> quark, quagmire, quasar, querulous, or queasy.
>

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 4:21 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...> wrote:
>
> > So they're both related to 36/35, but in completely different ways. I don't think "quartonic" is a very good name for either of them.
>
> A good name for one of them along with a recommendation we use it would be a good place to start.

Maybe the family vanishing 36/35 it could be the "mint" family, short
for MINor Third, because it mixes 7/6 and 6/5 together into one minty
interval.

-Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Maybe the family vanishing 36/35 it could be the "mint" family, short
> for MINor Third, because it mixes 7/6 and 6/5 together into one minty
> interval.

I like it.

-Igs