Re: [tuning] Utonal/Otonal question

Joseph!
the Utonality does not exist as a natural phenomenon but......
1. occurs on flutes with equally distance holes
2. occurs quite often when the drone is higher than the melody and just ratios are sung
against it. This occurs in certain forms of native american musics
3. it does occur in the harmonic series although high up . the 4 5 6 is easily found by taking
the 2 out of 3 set. for instance 4x5 4x6 5x6, being 20 24 30 (10 12 15)

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> I have a question regarding the Utonal/Otonal ratios after reading the
> very interesting commentary by Margo Schulter and the recent posts by
> Paul Erlich...
>
> My question is perhaps a naive one... and I admit it's time to read my
> "Genesis" again, but IS THE UTONAL SERIES something in nature?? or is it
> an entire fabrication?
>
> >From what I think I am understanding, let's be moronically simplistic
> for a moment and start on "middle C." Then your UTONAL ratios would
> yield a C below then an F, then a C, then an Ab, then an F... your
> "F-minor triad..."
>
> But does this "inverse ratio" process really come from anything in
> nature?? Of course the "minor triad" is up the Otonal series at 6:7:9,
> but that has nothing to do with the Utonal, yes??
>
> So does the Utonal ratio series really "mean" anything?? It seems there
> is a kind of "descending series" from "difference tones," yes?? or does
> this have no relation to it???
>
> ____________ _____ ____ __ _
> Joseph Pehrson
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FREE 16 track CD with Purchase at Virgin Megastore Online!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4208/1/_/239029/_/959313940/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@egroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@egroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@egroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@egroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@egroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote,

> 1. occurs on flutes with equally distance holes

Hey that reminds me, I remember a guy who used to contribute some
articles to the old EMI mag, and he would write (if I'm remembering
correctly) about an imaginary place and or culture who's music was
based on these types of aliquot tunings and instruments... does this
ring any bells (almost sounds like someone you would know with the
somewhat similar interests, or approaches and whatnot)?

Dan

Dan,

Was it Hans Barnard and his imaginary place called Keiolonie"?

Manuel

> Dan,
>
> Was it Hans Barnard and his imaginary place called >
Keiolonie"?
>
> Manuel

Yes, I think that's right.

The greek Aulos! likewise flutes around the world!

"D.Stearns" wrote:

> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> > 1. occurs on flutes with equally distance holes
>
> Hey that reminds me, I remember a guy who used to contribute some
> articles to the old EMI mag, and he would write (if I'm remembering
> correctly) about an imaginary place and or culture who's music was
> based on these types of aliquot tunings and instruments... does this
> ring any bells (almost sounds like someone you would know with the
> somewhat similar interests, or approaches and whatnot)?
>
> Dan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FREE 16 track CD with Purchase at Virgin Megastore Online!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4208/1/_/239029/_/959354099/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@egroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@egroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@egroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@egroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@egroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote,

> The greek Aulos! likewise flutes around the world!

Yes, I know these tunings aren't only imaginary! I was just wondering
if you were familiar with the articles and the person I was referring
to... Manuel suggested that they were written by Hans Barnard, and
think that's right.

Dan

"D!
Sorry missed them so far, but sure they would be of interest!

"D.Stearns" wrote:

> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> > The greek Aulos! likewise flutes around the world!
>
> Yes, I know these tunings aren't only imaginary! I was just wondering
> if you were familiar with the articles and the person I was referring
> to... Manuel suggested that they were written by Hans Barnard, and
> think that's right.
>
> Dan
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote,

>The greek Aulos! likewise flutes around the world!

The holes not only have to be equally spaced, but (1) their spacing has to
be an integer submultiple of the effective vibrating length, and (2) the
position of the first (or last) hole has to be exactly right with respect to
the end of the tube -- something not easy to specify even analytically due
to end effects. These two variables make it highly unlikely that a random,
perfectly shaped flute, with perfectly equally-spaced holes, all perfect in
all respects, would play anything like a utonal series as its scale. More
likely, you'd get a set of effective lengths like 1.3, 2.3, 3.3, 4.3, etc.,
or in general 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 4.x, rather than the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0
required for a utonal scale; and then a final length (all holes closed)
which does not even fit the series.

Paul!
Yes it i more complex that meet the ear. But are not all the series you mentioned not
utonality just higher up. Regardless the amount of flutes I have heard that do have lower
limit subharmonics is numerous and wide spread pointing out that humans have known how to do
this for a long time. What tricks they used seems to be somewhat lost. (arm lengths, finger
spacings) On the other hand those connected with the oral traditions like Jim French are more
than capable of doing this!
The exit hole is commonly tuned to a fifth or fourth of one of subharmonics, Erv has numerous
examples of this in his possession. i have quite a few notes on this buried which I can dig up
if there is interest!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >The greek Aulos! likewise flutes around the world!
>
> The holes not only have to be equally spaced, but (1) their spacing has to
> be an integer submultiple of the effective vibrating length, and (2) the
> position of the first (or last) hole has to be exactly right with respect to
> the end of the tube -- something not easy to specify even analytically due
> to end effects. These two variables make it highly unlikely that a random,
> perfectly shaped flute, with perfectly equally-spaced holes, all perfect in
> all respects, would play anything like a utonal series as its scale. More
> likely, you'd get a set of effective lengths like 1.3, 2.3, 3.3, 4.3, etc.,
> or in general 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 4.x, rather than the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0
> required for a utonal scale; and then a final length (all holes closed)
> which does not even fit the series.
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote,

>But are not all the series you mentioned not utonality just higher up?

Almost never, since typically, we will be talking about irrational numbers
-- think pi+1, pi+2, pi+3, pi+4 (pi is just an arbitrary example).

Paul!
Of course, this argument depends on weather one sees the continuum filled with an infinite
number of rationals (as in the scale tree) or an infinite number of irrationals (all implied
in the bottom figures in the scale tree or the horagrams). I have found flutes that just
didn't play but never one that generated an irrational set of intervals ( possibly my ear
related them to the closest series) kinda what you feel about 13 limit filling up all space.
It seems once a player "heard" the closest series then breath pressure ( even on a
subconscious level) would tune it in!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >But are not all the series you mentioned not utonality just higher up?
>
> Almost never, since typically, we will be talking about irrational numbers
> -- think pi+1, pi+2, pi+3, pi+4 (pi is just an arbitrary example).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get 2 FREE books at eHarlequin.com.Indulge in our romantic books,
> recipes and getaway ideas. Take your romantic escape today to
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4638/1/_/239029/_/959386161/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@egroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@egroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@egroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@egroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@egroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
www.anaphoria.com