Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Warts for subgroups

I added the wart notation to the General Theory page on the wiki for vals here

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Vals

I haven't put the subgroup notation in yet because I'm not entirely
sure how it works. Is it just that the nonprime basis elements are
referred to as q, r, s, t, etc, in the order that they appear in the
basis?

-Mike

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> I added the wart notation to the General Theory page on
> the wiki for vals here
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Vals
>
> I haven't put the subgroup notation in yet because I'm
> not entirely sure how it works. Is it just that the
> nonprime basis elements are referred to as q, r, s, t,
> etc, in the order that they appear in the basis?

Yes, that'll be it. The should be ordered lowest to
highest, in terms of the interval size.

Graham

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> I added the wart notation to the General Theory page on the wiki for vals here
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Vals

I would like the article to say p for patent is optional, not obligatory. I don't like it and never use it, for example.

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:

> Yes, that'll be it. The should be ordered lowest to
> highest, in terms of the interval size.

Agaain, please don't make this obligatory. Everything I've written on th Xenwiki orders them alphabetically in order of primes, so that for instance 9 always comes before 7.

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:05 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> >
> > I added the wart notation to the General Theory page on the wiki for vals here
> >
> > http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Vals
>
> I would like the article to say p for patent is optional, not obligatory. I don't like it and never use it, for example.

OK, I changed it.

-Mike

🔗gbreed@...

The p is for prime

Graham

------Original message------
From: genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 7:05:04 PM GMT-0000
Subject: [tuning] Re: Warts for subgroups

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> I added the wart notation to the General Theory page on the wiki for vals here
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Vals

I would like the article to say p for patent is optional, not obligatory. I don't like it and never use it, for example.

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🔗gbreed@...

Given that 7 is a prime number there's on difference in that case. But I don't think I order them for the naming so you're doubly safe

Graham

------Original message------
From: genewardsmith <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 7:06:59 PM GMT-0000
Subject: [tuning] Re: Warts for subgroups

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:

> Yes, that'll be it. The should be ordered lowest to
> highest, in terms of the interval size.

Agaain, please don't make this obligatory. Everything I've written on th Xenwiki orders them alphabetically in order of primes, so that for instance 9 always comes before 7.

------------------------------------

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "gbreed@..." <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> The p is for prime

Huh? What does "p for prime" mean, then? This makes no sense to me.

I thought the "p" stood for "patent".

Carl says this is really dumb, btw: http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/message/view/Keenan%27s+explanation+of+vals/48590508

Keenan

🔗gbreed@...

The p is for prime because you take the best approximations of the primes and ignore other intervals.
The example on the wiki isn't ambiguous and so doesn't need a wart. I've been consistent over the years in opposing any implied standard for ambiguous temperaments. (The p is mine not Herman's)
You could use o for the optimal mapping.

Graham

------Original message------
From: Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@...>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 8:40:35 PM GMT-0000
Subject: [tuning] Re: Warts for subgroups

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "gbreed@..." <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> The p is for prime

Huh? What does "p for prime" mean, then? This makes no sense to me.

I thought the "p" stood for "patent".

Carl says this is really dumb, btw: http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/message/view/Keenan%27s+explanation+of+vals/48590508

Keenan

------------------------------------

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Dec 27, 2011, at 4:13 PM, "gbreed@..." <gbreed@...> wrote:

The p is for prime because you take the best approximations of the primes
and ignore other intervals.

How do you handle subgroups with nonprime intervals in them? Say things
like 5/3 and so on.

-Mike

🔗gbreed@...

Still p. They're the prime intervals.

Graham

------Original message------
From: Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>
To: "tuning@yahoogroups.com" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:07:14 PM GMT-0500
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Warts for subgroups

On Dec 27, 2011, at 4:13 PM, "gbreed@..." <gbreed@...> wrote:

The p is for prime because you take the best approximations of the primes
and ignore other intervals.

How do you handle subgroups with nonprime intervals in them? Say things
like 5/3 and so on.

-Mike

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Mike suggested I post my comments on the xenwiki here:

p is for patent? That's really really really dumb.

We used patent vals for years without this wart notation.
You get the first two reallys for trying to change that and
the third for conflicting with your own idea (16th prime)!

Graham just said on tuning that it stands for "prime", so
now I have no idea what's going on. He must have been
talking about something else.

(Update: He was talking about the same thing!)

> Do you think this page would be clearer if it always
> spelled out vals, like <12 19 29|, or used some other
> notation?

The vals can easily be written out, or referred to as
the "12-tone patent val" or "12-ET patent val" or "12-EDO
patent val" or "patent val with 12 notes/oct" etc. If you
must have a shorthand, Gene has precedence with "h12".

-Carl

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 5:19 PM, gbreed@...
> <gbreed@...> wrote:
> >
> > Still p. They're the prime intervals.
>
> Is this the same thing as the patent val, which you're
> now calling the prime val?

I'm not calling anything the prime val. I called something
the nearest-primes mapping before. I don't know whether
that should extend to prime intervals that aren't prime
numbers. It would be nice to be consistent across
subgroups, but I don't have that wired up so you get a "p"
for the nearest approximations to the intervals you
specified.

Graham

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Just wondering if, when you thought this up, you told
anyone... Also wondering if you're willing to change it.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:

>
> I'm not calling anything the prime val. I called something
> the nearest-primes mapping before. I don't know whether
> that should extend to prime intervals that aren't prime
> numbers. It would be nice to be consistent across
> subgroups, but I don't have that wired up so you get a "p"
> for the nearest approximations to the intervals you
> specified.
>
>
> Graham
>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 5:19 PM, gbreed@...
> > <gbreed@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Still p. They're the prime intervals.
> >
> > Is this the same thing as the patent val, which you're
> > now calling the prime val?
>
> I'm not calling anything the prime val. I called something
> the nearest-primes mapping before. I don't know whether
> that should extend to prime intervals that aren't prime
> numbers. It would be nice to be consistent across
> subgroups, but I don't have that wired up so you get a "p"
> for the nearest approximations to the intervals you
> specified.
>
> Graham

OK, but is this the same thing is the patent val? Is there a
difference? It seems identical to me.

-Mike

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

"Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
> Just wondering if, when you thought this up, you told
> anyone... Also wondering if you're willing to change it.

I doubt I told anyone about such a trivial change. It's
hardly a good use of everybody's time is it? I don't even
see the point in finishing thi

> -Carl
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not calling anything the prime val. I called
> > something the nearest-primes mapping before. I don't
> > know whether that should extend to prime intervals that
> > aren't prime numbers. It would be nice to be
> > consistent across subgroups, but I don't have that
> > wired up so you get a "p" for the nearest
> > approximations to the intervals you specified.
> >
> >
> > Graham
> >
>
>
>
>
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🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
> > Just wondering if, when you thought this up, you told
> > anyone... Also wondering if you're willing to change it.
>
> I doubt I told anyone about such a trivial change. It's
> hardly a good use of everybody's time is it? I don't even
> see the point in finishing thi

Nice attitude! Personally, I would have asked. -Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

What exactly was changed? The thing that supposedly is a change sounds
exactly like the patent val.

-Mike

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
> >
> > "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
> > > Just wondering if, when you thought this up, you told
> > > anyone... Also wondering if you're willing to change it.
> >
> > I doubt I told anyone about such a trivial change. It's
> > hardly a good use of everybody's time is it? I don't even
> > see the point in finishing thi
>
> Nice attitude! Personally, I would have asked. -Carl
>
>
>