Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Celemony biography FYI

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=interview_peter&L=0

Charles Lucy
lucy@...

-- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning --

For more information on LucyTuning go to:

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🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Tim Reeves <reevest360@...>

wow, i just checked out this link, i recommend eveyone take the time to have a look,too

thanks Charles and Carl for the link.
tim

--- On Sat, 7/16/11, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Celemony biography FYI
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 16, 2011, 6:16 AM

> http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=interview_peter&L=0

Thank you, Charles. I usually follow their stuff but I
missed this. Neubacker is a god. But who knew he was into
just intonation, and who knew he was a guitar and violin
maker?

-Carl

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🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> I watched ten minutes of it and learned nothing of interest.
> Can someone explain what this is all about and why I should care?

One of the major audio software developers has a keen
interest in just intonation, a beautiful home, and gives
tantalizing clues about his astonishing algorithm, which
dramatically outperforms decades of attempts from both
the private and public sector.

-Carl

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
>
> > I watched ten minutes of it and learned nothing of interest.
> > Can someone explain what this is all about and why I should care?
>
> One of the major audio software developers has a keen
> interest in just intonation, a beautiful home, and gives
> tantalizing clues about his astonishing algorithm, which
> dramatically outperforms decades of attempts from both
> the private and public sector.

Clues to what and why should I care? I quit because some of what he said was nonsense and none of it was new; I'm still wondering what the good stuff is. Can you synopsize?

🔗Ryan Avella <domeofatonement@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...>
> Clues to what and why should I care? I quit because some of what he said was nonsense and none of it was new; I'm still wondering what the good stuff is. Can you synopsize?
>

If you quit because of the explanation of Just Intonation, you made a mistake. Peter may come across as a stubborn JI extremist if you are not patient enough to watch past the 10 minute mark, although he is completely opposite. He manufactures 12-equal guitars from the looks (ironically) and created some software which basically trumps FFT in all respects.

I also found some of the things he said to be simple but profound truths. I connected with Peter when he described the two different types of music: the music of the universe and the music of man. Music existed before the first lyre was plucked, before the first sung note, before the first flute was blown, and before the first sticks were smashed upon rocks. Essentially what he meant is that music is not an invention of mankind but a discovery.

Ryan

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Ryan Avella <domeofatonement@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...>
>
> > Clues to what and why should I care? I quit because some of what he said was nonsense and none of it was new; I'm still wondering what the good stuff is. Can you synopsize?
> >
>
> If you quit because of the explanation of Just Intonation, you made a mistake. Peter may come across as a stubborn JI extremist if you are not patient enough to watch past the 10 minute mark, although he is completely opposite. He manufactures 12-equal guitars from the looks (ironically) and created some software which basically trumps FFT in all respects.

Or, if Gene wants a more mathematical explanation, he has a created a
novel time-frequency representation that maps the signal onto a set of
non-orthogonal basis vectors that represent complex tones rather than
sinusoids. Furthermore, the way that he did it is flawless in
representing the way the human auditory system does it. The result is
that I can play a piece of music on a guitar, send it into his
algorithm, and it represents the signal as a bunch of separate "notes"
and lets me drag them around and microtone each one individually if I
want. So if anyone wants to get their hands on some bootleg Beatles
multitrack masters, we could use this program to dynamically retune
them to 31-equal or porcupine or whatever we want.

> I also found some of the things he said to be simple but profound truths. I connected with Peter when he described the two different types of music: the music of the universe and the music of man. Music existed before the first lyre was plucked, before the first sung note, before the first flute was blown, and before the first sticks were smashed upon rocks. Essentially what he meant is that music is not an invention of mankind but a discovery.

Inventions of mankind themselves are discoveries and blah blah blah
I'm so deep. However, I do believe it's true that animals communicate
via an abstract form of music, if we define music as the deliberate
use of the psychoacoustic features of an observer to transmit
information. This is opposed to the deliberate use of an observer's
assumed mapping of features to "meanings" to transmit information,
which is language.

Actual music and actual language obviously encompass both, but I'd
argue that the former is what distinguishes music from language.

-Mike

🔗Tim Reeves <reevest360@...>

you can liken your 10 minute jaunt to love making (i would assume)... you may not get all the right messages in such a short visit hehe

--- On Sat, 7/16/11, genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

From: genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>
Subject: [tuning] Re: Celemony biography FYI
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 16, 2011, 7:33 PM

Clues to what and why should I care? I quit because some of what he said was nonsense and none of it was new; I'm still wondering what the good stuff is. Can you synopsize?

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🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Or, if Gene wants a more mathematical explanation, he has a created a
> novel time-frequency representation that maps the signal onto a set of
> non-orthogonal basis vectors that represent complex tones rather than
> sinusoids.

Do you have a url for this basis? I've heard Bessel functions have advantages, but they're orthogonal.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

thanks Charles - that was a good video!

Chris

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=interview_peter&L=0
>
> Charles Lucy
> lucy@lucytune.com
>
> -- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning --
>
> For more information on LucyTuning go to:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world) can found at:
>
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Furthermore, the way that he did it is flawless in
> representing the way the human auditory system does it.

It's hardly flawless, but it is to the point where it's
faster to edit its mistakes than start from scratch. It
seems to work best on timbres with prominent attack an
short sustain, like acoustic guitar. The editing tools
(for merging things wrongly interpreted as separate notes,
or unfolding things into their components) are fantastic.

What Gene probably doesn't understand is that Neubaecker
has succeeded where decades of academic and commercial
attempts failed. This kind of thing is very rare in
human experience, especially where software is concerned.
(It did occur with chess engines from 2005-2010, after
two decades of dead heat between competitors.) Anyone
who works on the problem - and it's been discussed on
this list since before Gene joined - is watching and
rewatching this interview for the slightest clue about
how it works.

-Carl

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

if he filed a patent that will be the only place. If he decided to keep it a
trade secret instead we may never know - like the formula for coke.

The only clue I got out of it was:
- He seems to be matching frequencies and using interpolation.

One way to probe the software would be to download the free trial and feed
it a series of harmonic to very inharmonic samples and see how it reacts.

Chris

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 5:57 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> > Anyone
> > who works on the problem - and it's been discussed on
> > this list since before Gene joined - is watching and
> > rewatching this interview for the slightest clue about
> > how it works.
>
> I'm not working on the problem and so am not seeking clues; what I would
> like is an exposition.
>
>
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

it would seem that this company also cracked the same nut.

http://www.neuratron.com/audioscore.htm

This software does essentially the same thing except you don't move the
notes, just transcribe to midi.

Chris

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:

> if he filed a patent that will be the only place. If he decided to keep it
> a trade secret instead we may never know - like the formula for coke.
>
> The only clue I got out of it was:
> - He seems to be matching frequencies and using interpolation.
>
> One way to probe the software would be to download the free trial and feed
> it a series of harmonic to very inharmonic samples and see how it reacts.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 5:57 PM, genewardsmith <
> genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>>
>> > Anyone
>> > who works on the problem - and it's been discussed on
>> > this list since before Gene joined - is watching and
>> > rewatching this interview for the slightest clue about
>> > how it works.
>>
>> I'm not working on the problem and so am not seeking clues; what I would
>> like is an exposition.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> it would seem that this company also cracked the same nut.
>
> http://www.neuratron.com/audioscore.htm
>
> This software does essentially the same thing except you don't
> move the notes, just transcribe to midi.
>
> Chris
>

Maybe they've improved it since I last tried it, but I tend
to think I'd have heard about it if they had.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Gene wrote:

> I'm not working on the problem and so am not seeking clues;
> what I would like is an exposition.

Try this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_signal_separation

or maybe
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=blind+source+separation

Or maybe try the Melodyne demo (already suggested)?

Familiar with Aaron Wolf's Melodyne + barbershop work
(originally posted here)?

Or maybe those Vicentino performances from that BBC radio
documentary? The ones done by Jon Wild's group at McGill
were tuned with Melodyne.
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~devaney/files/pas4.pdf

-Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > Furthermore, the way that he did it is flawless in
> > representing the way the human auditory system does it.
>
> It's hardly flawless, but it is to the point where it's
> faster to edit its mistakes than start from scratch.

You'll have to forgive my hyperbole, but when a single program comes
along and solves almost every major engineering hurdle for a major
field of study all at once like that, people get excited.

-Mike

🔗Tim Reeves <reevest360@...>

yea Mike,

I have to agree...I have a friend who is an audio engineer, he says he uses celemony with protools. I'm not sure how it fits in but he is involved in daily live session work with symphonies and other concerts as well as Broadway productions-..btw, he really enjoyed the video

On Mon, 7/18/11, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

From: Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Celemony biography FYI
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 3:49 AM

You'll have to forgive my hyperbole, but when a single program comes
along and solves almost every major engineering hurdle for a major
field of study all at once like that, people get excited.

-Mike

------------------------------------

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 11:47 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > Or, if Gene wants a more mathematical explanation, he has a created a
> > novel time-frequency representation that maps the signal onto a set of
> > non-orthogonal basis vectors that represent complex tones rather than
> > sinusoids.
>
> Do you have a url for this basis? I've heard Bessel functions have advantages, but they're orthogonal.

Nope. The whole thing's proprietary. Perhaps we could do a patent
search and see if some useful part of the algorithm is described
somewhere. My description to you is simply a high-level and slightly
oversimplified mathematical account of what Melodyne is doing. We know
it's a time-frequency representation because that's what the concept
of "notes in time" entails. We know that they represent complex tones
rather than sinusoids because it coalesces a harmonic series into a
single note. So that, mathematically, is what Melodyne entails.

After thinking more about it, it might be possible to work it out with
an orthogonal setup - I thought that the fact that, say, a 400 Hz tone
in isolation could be 400, 200, 133, 100, 80 etc Hz meant that the
basis vectors themselves had to be non-orthogonal, but you might be
able to work it out either way.

What have you heard about Bessel functions? All I know is the Hankel
transform here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hankel_transform

I've only heard of it but thought it might be useful in describing the
effect of function composition for f(g(t)) on the Fourier spectrum of
g(t). If you've heard anything to that effect I'd love to hear it.

-Mike

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

I would suggest to Gene or anyone to watch one particular video to get a
sense of the possibilites. go to:

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=videos&L=0

under the "Melodyne Editor" tab, scroll to the third row of videos and watch
the one called "Note Detection, Polyphonic".

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> > Clues to what and why should I care?
>
> I can't pretend to know if you would care. Are you interested
> in polyphonic scene analysis and pitch correction? Ever
> used Melodyne? Care to know which music industry figures,
> if any, know the first thing about intonation?
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Thank you Dante. Actually that video convinced me that this software is not
worth $350. Unless you were going to use it as a synthesis tool. I imagine
you can do interesting artificial things with it. But if the algorithm is
that inaccurate that it takes this much hand correction using it to do
anything on an entire piece would be excruciating. The existence of the
venetian blinds and all of these fine tuning capabilities explain that the
software is not $350 worth yet.

I did this mostly with the monophonic (non-DNA) version of this software to
give you some idea of what you could do if you abused the source material.

Online listen and story plus review. Such a deal! And yeah.... its
microtonal in a way. Just not the usual way.
http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/desecration-of-an-art-song-2

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Dante Rosati <danterosati@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I would suggest to Gene or anyone to watch one particular video to get a
> sense of the possibilites. go to:
>
> http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=videos&L=0
>
> under the "Melodyne Editor" tab, scroll to the third row of videos and
> watch the one called "Note Detection, Polyphonic".
>
>
>

Celemony biography FYI

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Tim Reeves <reevest360@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Ryan Avella <domeofatonement@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Tim Reeves <reevest360@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Tim Reeves <reevest360@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>