i'd like to add one more row in this table, before the first row:

/tuning/database?

method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=4&sortDir=down&start_at=0&query=

this row would have 16:15 vanishing, and connect the family of ETs 5,

8, 3.

who can supply the necessary information?

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> i'd like to add one more row in this table, before the first row:

>

> /tuning/database?

> method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=4&sortDir=down&start_at=0&query=

>

> this row would have 16:15 vanishing, and connect the family of ETs 5,

> 8, 3.

>

> who can supply the necessary information?

Aw, c'mon Paul. This isn't a 5-limit temperament, except perhaps in a

musically-irrelevant purely-mathematical sense. This is the thing

where the generator has to act as both the fourth and the major third

(or the fifth and the minor sixth) and of course succeeds in doing

neither.

Next you'll be wanting the one where 9:10 vanishes. ;-)

It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic as

5-limit temperaments. I think I have to draw the line at errors

greater than 35 cents. So I have a similar objection to the one where

25:27 vanishes.

But you should find what you want in

http://dkeenan.com/Music/5LimitTemp.xls.zip

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"

<d.keenan@u...> wrote:

> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus

> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> > i'd like to add one more row in this table, before the first row:

> >

> > /tuning/database?

> > method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=4&sortDir=down&start_at=0&query=

> >

> > this row would have 16:15 vanishing, and connect the family of

ETs 5,

> > 8, 3.

> >

> > who can supply the necessary information?

>

> Aw, c'mon Paul. This isn't a 5-limit temperament, except perhaps in

a

> musically-irrelevant purely-mathematical sense. This is the thing

> where the generator has to act as both the fourth and the major

third

> (or the fifth and the minor sixth) and of course succeeds in doing

> neither.

if we had listened to you about badness, you wouldn't be seeing any

green lines on the graph with 494 and 612 on it. things like this are

useful to know.

> Next you'll be wanting the one where 9:10 vanishes. ;-)

not really -- this one just seems like a severe omission at the

moment, if you look at the graphs and charts.

> But you should find what you want in

> http://dkeenan.com/Music/5LimitTemp.xls.zip

thanks!!

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"

<d.keenan@u...> wrote:

> It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic as

> 5-limit temperaments.

pelogic is among the most useful 5-limit temperaments ever

discovered. just try a few different inharmonic timbres and you'll

quickly find one that works. be sure to listen to some gamelan music

first :)

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"

> <d.keenan@u...> wrote:

>

> > It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic as

> > 5-limit temperaments.

>

> pelogic is among the most useful 5-limit temperaments ever

> discovered. just try a few different inharmonic timbres and you'll

> quickly find one that works. be sure to listen to some gamelan music

> first :)

Pelog may be among the most useful MOS scales ever discovered, but if

it _requires_ inharmonic timbres, in what sense is it an approximation

of 5-limit JI?

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"

<d.keenan@u...> wrote:

> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus

> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> > --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"

> > <d.keenan@u...> wrote:

> >

> > > It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic

as

> > > 5-limit temperaments.

> >

> > pelogic is among the most useful 5-limit temperaments ever

> > discovered. just try a few different inharmonic timbres and

you'll

> > quickly find one that works. be sure to listen to some gamelan

music

> > first :)

>

> Pelog may be among the most useful MOS scales ever discovered, but

if

> it _requires_ inharmonic timbres, in what sense is it an

approximation

> of 5-limit JI?

the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they don't

always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6, 8,

12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)

position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of 5-

limit JI :)

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:27:39 -0000 "wallyesterpaulrus

<wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com> writes:

> the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they don't

> always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6, 8,

> 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)

> position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of 5-

> limit JI :)

Csound lets you play with these, but I was disappointed to find that

unless the inharmonic partials are close to harmonic, I find the timbres

get on my nerves.

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> if we had listened to you about badness, you wouldn't be seeing any

> green lines on the graph with 494 and 612 on it.

I was about to write "You've got me there", however I realised that it

is still the case that I have no interest in 494 or 612

_as_5_limit_temperaments_. Presumably they would appear in my kind of

list at much higher limits, although 624 looks like it might replace

612 beyond 17-limit.

> things like this are useful to know.

Maybe so.

> > Next you'll be wanting the one where 9:10 vanishes. ;-)

>

> not really -- this one just seems like a severe omission at the

> moment, if you look at the graphs and charts.

And it probably sounds just great with inharmonic timbres. ;-)

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they don't > always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6, 8, > 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever) > position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of 5-

> limit JI :)

That's not true. Many of Sethares' timbres are measured from physical objects. It is true that the ones that start as harmonic timbres start as harmonic timbres.

Graham

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Gene W Smith <genewardsmith@j...>

wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:27:39 -0000 "wallyesterpaulrus

> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> writes:

>

> > the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they

don't

> > always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6,

8,

> > 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)

> > position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of

5-

> > limit JI :)

>

> Csound lets you play with these, but I was disappointed to find that

> unless the inharmonic partials are close to harmonic, I find the

timbres

> get on my nerves.

how close? for example, if you tweak them all the way to 8-equal, do

they get on your nerves? how about 12-equal?

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...> wrote:

> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

>

> > the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they

don't

> > always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6,

8,

> > 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)

> > position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of

5-

> > limit JI :)

>

> That's not true. Many of Sethares' timbres are measured from

physical

> objects. It is true that the ones that start as harmonic timbres

start

> as harmonic timbres.

>

>

> Graham

the ones that depart too much from harmonicity don't evoke the

sensation of a single pitch. this may be what's getting on gene's

nerves . . .

it's true that sethares works in two directions: matching tuning to

timbre and matching timbre to tuning. the former case has some issues

that i don't think he's dealt with properly (as even joseph seemed to

notice). the latter, though, is the case i was referring to, and as

sethares was the one who wished to see 7, 8, 9, and 10 on the et

chart, i think it's important to acknowledge the approximation-of-

approximation-of-5-limit-ji possibilities inherent in these tunings.

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> it's true that sethares works in two directions: matching tuning to

> timbre and matching timbre to tuning. the former case has some

issues

> that i don't think he's dealt with properly

dealt with *the former* properly . . . because i think he derives

scales as analogous to harmonic series scales -- which are actually

quite rare in practice -- periodicity blocks would be a far better

paradigm . . .