vanishing diatonic semitone

i'd like to add one more row in this table, before the first row:

/tuning/database?
method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=4&sortDir=down&start_at=0&query=

this row would have 16:15 vanishing, and connect the family of ETs 5,
8, 3.

who can supply the necessary information?

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> i'd like to add one more row in this table, before the first row:
>
> /tuning/database?
> method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=4&sortDir=down&start_at=0&query=
>
> this row would have 16:15 vanishing, and connect the family of ETs 5,
> 8, 3.
>
> who can supply the necessary information?

Aw, c'mon Paul. This isn't a 5-limit temperament, except perhaps in a
musically-irrelevant purely-mathematical sense. This is the thing
where the generator has to act as both the fourth and the major third
(or the fifth and the minor sixth) and of course succeeds in doing
neither.

Next you'll be wanting the one where 9:10 vanishes. ;-)

It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic as
5-limit temperaments. I think I have to draw the line at errors
greater than 35 cents. So I have a similar objection to the one where
25:27 vanishes.

But you should find what you want in
http://dkeenan.com/Music/5LimitTemp.xls.zip

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"
<d.keenan@u...> wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > i'd like to add one more row in this table, before the first row:
> >
> > /tuning/database?
> > method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=4&sortDir=down&start_at=0&query=
> >
> > this row would have 16:15 vanishing, and connect the family of
ETs 5,
> > 8, 3.
> >
> > who can supply the necessary information?
>
> Aw, c'mon Paul. This isn't a 5-limit temperament, except perhaps in
a
> musically-irrelevant purely-mathematical sense. This is the thing
> where the generator has to act as both the fourth and the major
third
> (or the fifth and the minor sixth) and of course succeeds in doing
> neither.

if we had listened to you about badness, you wouldn't be seeing any
green lines on the graph with 494 and 612 on it. things like this are
useful to know.

> Next you'll be wanting the one where 9:10 vanishes. ;-)

not really -- this one just seems like a severe omission at the
moment, if you look at the graphs and charts.

> But you should find what you want in
> http://dkeenan.com/Music/5LimitTemp.xls.zip

thanks!!

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"
<d.keenan@u...> wrote:

> It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic as
> 5-limit temperaments.

pelogic is among the most useful 5-limit temperaments ever
discovered. just try a few different inharmonic timbres and you'll
quickly find one that works. be sure to listen to some gamelan music
first :)

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"
> <d.keenan@u...> wrote:
>
> > It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic as
> > 5-limit temperaments.
>
> pelogic is among the most useful 5-limit temperaments ever
> discovered. just try a few different inharmonic timbres and you'll
> quickly find one that works. be sure to listen to some gamelan music
> first :)

Pelog may be among the most useful MOS scales ever discovered, but if
it _requires_ inharmonic timbres, in what sense is it an approximation
of 5-limit JI?

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"
<d.keenan@u...> wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan <d.keenan@u...>"
> > <d.keenan@u...> wrote:
> >
> > > It's been a stretch for me to accept neutral thirds and pelogic
as
> > > 5-limit temperaments.
> >
> > pelogic is among the most useful 5-limit temperaments ever
> > discovered. just try a few different inharmonic timbres and
you'll
> > quickly find one that works. be sure to listen to some gamelan
music
> > first :)
>
> Pelog may be among the most useful MOS scales ever discovered, but
if
> it _requires_ inharmonic timbres, in what sense is it an
approximation
> of 5-limit JI?

the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they don't
always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6, 8,
12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)
position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of 5-
limit JI :)

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:27:39 -0000 "wallyesterpaulrus
<wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com> writes:

> the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they don't
> always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6, 8,
> 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)
> position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of 5-
> limit JI :)

Csound lets you play with these, but I was disappointed to find that
unless the inharmonic partials are close to harmonic, I find the timbres
get on my nerves.

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> if we had listened to you about badness, you wouldn't be seeing any
> green lines on the graph with 494 and 612 on it.

I was about to write "You've got me there", however I realised that it
is still the case that I have no interest in 494 or 612
_as_5_limit_temperaments_. Presumably they would appear in my kind of
list at much higher limits, although 624 looks like it might replace
612 beyond 17-limit.

> things like this are useful to know.

Maybe so.

> > Next you'll be wanting the one where 9:10 vanishes. ;-)
>
> not really -- this one just seems like a severe omission at the
> moment, if you look at the graphs and charts.

And it probably sounds just great with inharmonic timbres. ;-)

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they don't > always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6, 8, > 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever) > position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of 5-
> limit JI :)

That's not true. Many of Sethares' timbres are measured from physical objects. It is true that the ones that start as harmonic timbres start as harmonic timbres.

Graham

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Gene W Smith <genewardsmith@j...>
wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:27:39 -0000 "wallyesterpaulrus
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> writes:
>
> > the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they
don't
> > always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6,
8,
> > 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)
> > position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of
5-
> > limit JI :)
>
> Csound lets you play with these, but I was disappointed to find that
> unless the inharmonic partials are close to harmonic, I find the
timbres
> get on my nerves.

how close? for example, if you tweak them all the way to 8-equal, do
they get on your nerves? how about 12-equal?

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...> wrote:
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > the timbres that people like sethares talk about, even if they
don't
> > always say so, start as harmonic and then each harmonic (up to 6,
8,
> > 12, whatever) is "tweaked" toward the nearest et (or whatever)
> > position. therefore, it's an approximation of an approximation of
5-
> > limit JI :)
>
> That's not true. Many of Sethares' timbres are measured from
physical
> objects. It is true that the ones that start as harmonic timbres
start
> as harmonic timbres.
>
>
> Graham

the ones that depart too much from harmonicity don't evoke the
sensation of a single pitch. this may be what's getting on gene's
nerves . . .

it's true that sethares works in two directions: matching tuning to
timbre and matching timbre to tuning. the former case has some issues
that i don't think he's dealt with properly (as even joseph seemed to
notice). the latter, though, is the case i was referring to, and as
sethares was the one who wished to see 7, 8, 9, and 10 on the et
chart, i think it's important to acknowledge the approximation-of-
approximation-of-5-limit-ji possibilities inherent in these tunings.

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> it's true that sethares works in two directions: matching tuning to
> timbre and matching timbre to tuning. the former case has some
issues
> that i don't think he's dealt with properly

dealt with *the former* properly . . . because i think he derives
scales as analogous to harmonic series scales -- which are actually
quite rare in practice -- periodicity blocks would be a far better
paradigm . . .