lame-ass question

I finally started building my mini-ensemble of
idiot-proof guitars.

I'm rather satisfied with the results of transforming
a $9 flea market mini guitar to 3 sets of double strings
("root/fifth/octave") and a fretboard with an octave
divided into six parts each at 1.25 inches.

My girlfriend, who is trained as a vocalist,
finds the combination of timbre and interval
structure erotically stimulating.

That's not a problem.

My issue is with the first fret.

Am I not liking those tones as much as the others
because it's basically an 11:12 kinda thing for which
my brain isn't wired, or is it just that imperfect
intonation is harder to resolve neurologically than
the other intervals?
I appreciate that, all else being equal, variations
in fret placement will have greater proportional
implications for this interval than for the others.

I find that melodies involving the first fret
go smoother if I don't approach or leave these
tones via fret zero (open string).
Is it a common strategy in the intonation system
I'm using to use fret zero and fret 1 as
mutually exlusive, obe "substituting" for the
other or what not?

Some reference literature might help, if anyone
can suggest it.

I'm thinking "Morrocco". Am I on the right track?

--- In tuning-math@y..., <Josh@o...> wrote:
> I finally started building my mini-ensemble of
> idiot-proof guitars.
>
> I'm rather satisfied with the results of transforming
> a $9 flea market mini guitar to 3 sets of double strings
> ("root/fifth/octave") and a fretboard with an octave
> divided into six parts each at 1.25 inches.
>
> My girlfriend, who is trained as a vocalist,
> finds the combination of timbre and interval
> structure erotically stimulating.
>
> That's not a problem.
>
> My issue is with the first fret.
>
> Am I not liking those tones as much as the others
> because it's basically an 11:12 kinda thing for which
> my brain isn't wired, or is it just that imperfect
> intonation is harder to resolve neurologically than
> the other intervals?
> I appreciate that, all else being equal, variations
> in fret placement will have greater proportional
> implications for this interval than for the others.
>
> I find that melodies involving the first fret
> go smoother if I don't approach or leave these
> tones via fret zero (open string).
> Is it a common strategy in the intonation system
> I'm using to use fret zero and fret 1 as
> mutually exlusive, obe "substituting" for the
> other or what not?
>
> Some reference literature might help, if anyone
> can suggest it.
>
> I'm thinking "Morrocco". Am I on the right track?

yup. north african and arabic music is rich in these three-quarters-
of-a-tone melodic intervals. if you can get a hold of as much of this
music as you can to listen to for a while, i'd recommend it -- though
you probably won't be able to emulate all the other notes of
these "ethnic" scales on your guitar.

not sure what kind of literature you're looking for . . . on equally-
spaced-fret instruments?

Yes, I'm looking for equal-fretted music that's at least
intonationally close to what could be produced by the
instruments I'm working with now.
I'm less interested in "experimental" music than in
examples of some established cultural utility.

I handed one of my new toys to a drunk carpet cleaner
guy who lives with my s/o and asked him to try it.
He said he couldn't actually play any instrument.
I told him that the instrument "doesn't have any
wrong notes but sounds 'exotic'". He did fine!

Then I told him that the thing cost $9 plus some
labor and a few dabs of glue.

He was BAFFLED.

Soon I can completely stop worrying about
recruiting/auditioning trained musicians
and build an ensemble out of whoever shows
up consistently and is willing to work.

I wish I'd started this process a long time ago.

--- In tuning-math@y..., <Josh@o...> wrote:
> Yes, I'm looking for equal-fretted music that's at least
> intonationally close to what could be produced by the
> instruments I'm working with now.
> I'm less interested in "experimental" music than in
> examples of some established cultural utility.

why would you think that any established culture uses equally-spaced
frets? equal temperaments, yes . . . equally-spaced frets, i've heard
of plenty of "experimental" examples but that's it.

good luck!

I would think equal fret spacing would be visually
easy to acheive and would make the instrument easier
to play. It also would supply a variety of simple intervals
which would have automatic heirarchical implications.

I'm really quite pleased with the tuning I'm working
with now, and I'd be surprised that others haven't been.
It sounds "North African" to me, but I haven't had
been able to examine the instruments producing the examples
I've heard that sound this way.
If there's a more complicated way to get the same effect,
I fail to see why that would be used.

My original criteria were that I wanted
a 5, 6 or 7 tone basic scale, I wanted
no gaps larger than a "major third"
(the small kind) I wanted
a clean "4th", "5th" and octave and I wanted
extremely visually reliable fret spacing,
which meant starting with equal frets anyway.

I apparently got what I wanted on the first try,
but I'm tempted to try to do something better
(you ALL know how that is, I'll bet).
I'm just not as enthusiastic as was Harry Partch
about the number 11, and I'm not sure what
(if anything) I should do about it.

--- In tuning-math@y..., <Josh@o...> wrote:

> I'm just not as enthusiastic as was Harry Partch
> about the number 11, and I'm not sure what
> (if anything) I should do about it.

have you listened to many chords like 4:5:6:7:9:11 for example? this
is where 11 really shines.

melodically, i don't think ratios have much to do with melodic
suitability, at least not any ratios more complex than 4:3 --
different cultures will use different melodic intervals, and
melodically speaking, anything unfamiliar will sound "foreign"
or "out-of-tune" whether it's more "rational", less "rational", or
whatever.

I see your point about melody, but I've come to
consider ratios melodically relevant, at least
in arithmetic timbres and/or situations where
"melodic" tones actually slop over each other,
such as is the case with the harp.

I'm intending to use the guitars for heterophonic
textures where verticalities have some relevance.

Striking 6 tones of my scale as a chord would
conceal a multitude of sins.
I have a larger BAD guitar with ~10.5 frets per octave
that won't hold open strings in tune.
It plays beautifully lush 6-pitch chords,
but it's difficult to resolve with other instruments.
(I didn't build this guitar. I got it for $10).

I'm finding that my ear tolerates the better melodic
interactions between the 1st fret and other frets
than between the first fret and an open string
or a 2:1 fret or harmonic.

I guess I'm just slow in learning to accomodate
the weakest part of the scale, eh?

I should mention that I've heard plenty of
different intonations while playing in
"early" music ensembles, chinese ensembles
and javanese and balinese gamelan, so it's
not simply a "foreignness" issue for me.

Chinese ensembles usually sound more "naturally"
in tune to me than a western orchestra.
Balinese gamelan sounds to me to be more internally
consistent than a western orchestra, but not
any more "naturally" in tune.
Javanese gamelan just usually sounds to me to be sort
of "half-assed" in terms of the way its timbres
and intervals interact.

There's not a lot of really good "early music"
intonation out there, but I at least appreciate
hearing things old and Europeanish that don't
stink of 12tet.

Ensembles I haven't played with but appreciate
are include various Korean, Indian (especially
south Indian) and some African, Bulgarian
and Scottish highland bagpipes.

Arabic, Andean and Japanese music I
usually find tedious.

As someone who knows tuning much better than I do,
are you seeing any kind of a pattern?

--- In tuning-math@y..., <Josh@o...> wrote:

> I'm finding that my ear tolerates the better melodic
> interactions between the 1st fret and other frets
> than between the first fret and an open string
> or a 2:1 fret or harmonic.
>
> I guess I'm just slow in learning to accomodate
> the weakest part of the scale, eh?

or maybe the scale just isn't so well balanced, particularly if
you're favoring the open string. but yeah, i guess 11:12 would be one
of the most harmonically dissonant intervals you can possibly produce
on that beast.

--- In tuning-math@y..., <Josh@o...> wrote:

> There's not a lot of really good "early music"
> intonation out there,

are you making a sweeping statement or is this supposed to be limited
to your record collection or whatever?

> As someone who knows tuning much better than I do,
> are you seeing any kind of a pattern?

hmm . . . not at the moment . . .