Wikipedia pages: Lattice, Pitch space, etc.

Hi Gene,

I have been looking at the various Wikipedia pages
on lattices:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(group)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_structure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bravais_lattice
etc.

(here's the disambiguation page listing all of them)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice

and have not seen any of them linking to the page
on Pitch space:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_space

Would you please put links in the proper places?
Thanks.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

monz wrote:
> Hi Gene,
> > > I have been looking at the various Wikipedia pages
> on lattices:

> and have not seen any of them linking to the page
> on Pitch space:

That's probably because they shouldn't be linking to it. People looking for information on lattices will likely not be interested in this application.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_space

That's quite right to link to lattices

> Would you please put links in the proper places?

If somebody's telling you not to make the edits because you have a conflict of interest, you could accept that and leave it. Making changes by proxy is still wrong. And I think Gene has as much interest in this as you do.

Putting links all over Wikipedia doesn't help. You may think it promotes the ideas, but in fact it makes us look like cranks.

Graham

>> Would you please put links in the proper places?
>
>If somebody's telling you not to make the edits because you
>have a conflict of interest, you could accept that and leave
>it. Making changes by proxy is still wrong. And I think
>Gene has as much interest in this as you do.
>
>Putting links all over Wikipedia doesn't help. You may
>think it promotes the ideas, but in fact it makes us look
>like cranks.

Thanks for saying this, Graham.

-Carl

Hi Graham,

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> monz wrote:
> > Hi Gene,
> >
> >
> > I have been looking at the various Wikipedia pages
> > on lattices:
>
> > and have not seen any of them linking to the page
> > on Pitch space:
>
> That's probably because they shouldn't be linking to it.
> People looking for information on lattices will likely not
> be interested in this application.

But a link from the article on the correct type of
lattice would still be appropriate, since pitch space
*is* an application of that type of lattice.

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_space
>
> That's quite right to link to lattices
>
> > Would you please put links in the proper places?
>
> If somebody's telling you not to make the edits
> because you have a conflict of interest, you could
> accept that and leave it. Making changes by proxy
> is still wrong. And I think Gene has as much interest
> in this as you do.

I haven't been admonished not to do this, nor am i
trying to have Gene do it by proxy. I simply don't
know enough about lattices from a mathematical point
of view to feel authoritative enough to provide the
correct links.

If you think you are the right person to do it,
the please do ... altho i'm guessing by what you
wrote to me that you won't.

> Putting links all over Wikipedia doesn't help.
> You may think it promotes the ideas, but in fact
> it makes us look like cranks.

Why do you say that? It just seems to me that anytime
any hypertext article in an encyclopedia mentions
something that is also in the encyclopedia, there
should be a link connecting them. After all, that
is the point of hypertext.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

monz wrote:

> But a link from the article on the correct type of
> lattice would still be appropriate, since pitch space
> *is* an application of that type of lattice.

It's not appropriate because that kind of pitch space is a much smaller area of study. (If you read the pitch space article it isn't all about lattices of either kind).

> I haven't been admonished not to do this, nor am i
> trying to have Gene do it by proxy. I simply don't
> know enough about lattices from a mathematical point
> of view to feel authoritative enough to provide the
> correct links.

Okay, sorry for that accusation.

> If you think you are the right person to do it,
> the please do ... altho i'm guessing by what you
> wrote to me that you won't.

I'm behind the Great Firewall anyway.

You can try adding a link "lattices are also a model of pitch space" and let somebody with more expertise correct it. That's how Wikipedia's supposed to work. But I expect in this case it'll get deleted.

>>Putting links all over Wikipedia doesn't help.
>>You may think it promotes the ideas, but in fact
>>it makes us look like cranks.
> > Why do you say that? It just seems to me that anytime
> any hypertext article in an encyclopedia mentions > something that is also in the encyclopedia, there
> should be a link connecting them. After all, that
> is the point of hypertext.

Not if it means the text becomes a forest of links. Anyway, the lattice pages didn't refer to music when I saw them. If they do then certainly add the links.

The correct way is for obscure pages to link to their context. If there were peer reviewed articles relating pitch space to some kind of lattice it would count as an application of lattice theory but they're thin on the ground.

Graham

>> I haven't been admonished not to do this, nor am i
>> trying to have Gene do it by proxy. I simply don't
>> know enough about lattices from a mathematical point
>> of view to feel authoritative enough to provide the
>> correct links.
>
>Okay, sorry for that accusation.

Sorry too -- I read Graham's "if" as rhetorical, as in,
he'd already looked and seen this was the case on the
talk page.

-Carl

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >> Would you please put links in the proper places?
> >
> >If somebody's telling you not to make the edits because you
> >have a conflict of interest, you could accept that and leave
> >it. Making changes by proxy is still wrong. And I think
> >Gene has as much interest in this as you do.
> >
> >Putting links all over Wikipedia doesn't help. You may
> >think it promotes the ideas, but in fact it makes us look
> >like cranks.
>
> Thanks for saying this, Graham.
>
> -Carl

Amen brothers.

-- Dave K

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@> wrote:
> >
> > >> Would you please put links in the proper places?
> > >
> > > If somebody's telling you not to make the edits because you
> > > have a conflict of interest, you could accept that and leave
> > > it. Making changes by proxy is still wrong. And I think
> > > Gene has as much interest in this as you do.
> > >
> > > Putting links all over Wikipedia doesn't help. You may
> > > think it promotes the ideas, but in fact it makes us look
> > > like cranks.
> >
> > Thanks for saying this, Graham.
> >
> > -Carl
>
> Amen brothers.
>
> -- Dave K

Fine.
From now on i'll just stick to updating my *own* Encyclopedia.

I'm tired of being shot down for trying to help make info
more accessible.

Hopefully those who edit Wikipedia will put links to
my work where it's relevant.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
> Fine.
> From now on i'll just stick to updating my *own* Encyclopedia.
>
> I'm tired of being shot down for trying to help make info
> more accessible.
>
> Hopefully those who edit Wikipedia will put links to
> my work where it's relevant.

Good onya Monz. That's the way to do it. You don't have to worry. The
world is eternally in your debt for compiling the tuning encyclopedia.
It comes up in my google searches all the time, so it's irrelevant
whether it is linked from Wikipedia or not (although it is). It's
wonderful to have it all in one place.

I'd like sagittal to be linked from the Microtonal section of the
Music Notation article in wikipedia, but it's not up to me. I know it
will happen if and when Sagittal becomes a household word among
microtonalists.

One thing that would make your encyclopedia not merely brilliant but
incandescent, would be a local search. Like a google search, but it
only searches the tonalsoft enc. That way we could find every entry in
which say "fokker" was mentioned or whatever. If that costs money, I'd
be willing to make a donation.

-- Dave K

Hi Dave,

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:

> One thing that would make your encyclopedia not merely
> brilliant but incandescent, would be a local search.
> Like a google search, but it only searches the tonalsoft
> enc. That way we could find every entry in which say
> "fokker" was mentioned or whatever. If that costs money,
> I'd be willing to make a donation.

Wow, thanks for that offer!

Unfortunately, what we need most to do work like this
is time. Chris had to get a more-than-full-time job,
and now i'm busy with my first baby.

When we migrated the Encyclopedia to the new Tonalsoft
website back in 2005, i removed all the links that
connected the Encyclopedia pages to each other, because
we were supposed to switch to using software to maintain
the links in the Encyclopedia. But we never got that far,
and so now the Encyclopedia pages just don't have links.

I'm unhappy about that, because the links used to be
there and IMO the Encyclopedia is far less useful now
without them, and it's been in that state for over
2 years already. Lately i've been considering just
editing the pages by hand to put the links back in.

Another thing is that all of my longer essays are still
on the Sonic Arts website (i.e., they never even made
it to the migration). At least the Encyclopedia pages
are all indexed at the top of each Encyclopedia page
-- but my longer essays are even harder to find now.

I'll discuss the local search idea with Chris and see
if we can implement it.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software