Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning-math One character ascii symbols for important commas

Gene wrote:
________________________________________________________________________
Subject: One character ascii symbols for important commas

I'm not finding these in the stuff I have about notation, which will
not do. We must have some symbols for the likes of 36/35, 49/48 or
50/49, 126/125, 225/224, surely? What are they? Given these, I can
make Scala type notation files.
________________________________________________________________________

Sounds like a purely sensible notion to me, and I'm surprised that
this doesn't seem to have been addressed systematically before
by someone in the tuning list, or by their illustrious antecendents ...

On the face of it, at least a part of the motivation for Sagittal
must have been to make the size of the accidental symbols relate
directly to the size of the relevant intervals - bigger jump, bigger
sign, and vice versa.

What I'd personally like to see, as most likely to help performance,
is:
a) an ordered list of "important" commas
b) a justification for any omissions - what makes a comma unimportant?
c) a proposal for notating a set of accidentals that is -
1. easy to read - that is , identify and distinguish.
2. monochromatic - just black on white.
3. quick to write.
4. easy to write accurately.
5. proportionate in visual size to the interval notated.
6. invertible, so that the symbols for comma-type-x up and down
are mirror-images.

Now that's my shopping list - should I say "requirements specification"?
:-) Surely all these smart people can design something along these lines?

What REALLY strikes me as strange is that so much effort has gone into
designing notation systems - without any apparent agreement on points
a) and b)! I could draw an analogy to programmers who rush in to write
code before establishing the requirements. Worrying about HOW to do
something is pointless without knowing WHAT we want to do ...

Now Gene's asking, quite reasonably I think, for a set of ASCII symbols
for important commas - not a set of musical symbols per se, ie for staff
notation.

Using ASCII markedly limits the scope of any solution we may arrive at.
there are very few pairs of mirror image characters in ASCII, and Gene
has used most of them. Are there enough to cover all the "important"
commas? Without knowing that list, I can't answer that question. Also,
the mirror pairs have a left-right symmetry, whereas our notation systems
- and linguistic usage - argue in favour of an up-down symmetry instead.

Would it be possible to use Unicode instead of ASCII?

I'm sure the days of venerable 7-bit ASCII - and even IBM's 8-bit
Extended ASCII - are finally drawing to a close. Which mass-market
operating systems don't speak Unicode now?

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> a) an ordered list of "important" commas
> b) a justification for any omissions - what makes a comma unimportant?

I think an epimericity bound works pretty well to give the important
commas; then any superparticular comma is important by definition. WE
can also use badness measures for the corresponding temperament, and
lattice distance questions also play a role, in that "closer" commas
turn up more and are more useful. Past a certain point (the 11-limit,
perhaps) the superparticulars are all you need.

> What REALLY strikes me as strange is that so much effort has gone into
> designing notation systems - without any apparent agreement on points
> a) and b)!

I think a and b have recieved a lot of attention, but not from the
point of view of notation systems.

> Would it be possible to use Unicode instead of ASCII?

An excellent question, for which only Manuel knows the answer since
these have to be able to work with Scala.

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> Gene wrote:
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Subject: One character ascii symbols for important commas
>
> I'm not finding these in the stuff I have about notation, which will
> not do. We must have some symbols for the likes of 36/35, 49/48 or
> 50/49, 126/125, 225/224, surely? What are they? Given these, I can
> make Scala type notation files.
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Sounds like a purely sensible notion to me, and I'm surprised that
> this doesn't seem to have been addressed systematically before
> by someone in the tuning list, or by their illustrious antecendents ...
>

Dear Yahya,

It has been - or rather it still is being - addressed in the sagittal
notation project, which anyone is welcome to contribute to. We only
ask that you first understand the foundation that is in place so far,
as described on the website.
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/

> On the face of it, at least a part of the motivation for Sagittal
> must have been to make the size of the accidental symbols relate
> directly to the size of the relevant intervals - bigger jump, bigger
> sign, and vice versa.

Absolutely!

> What I'd personally like to see, as most likely to help performance,
> is:
> a) an ordered list of "important" commas
> b) a justification for any omissions - what makes a comma unimportant?

There are (at least) two very different reasons why a comma might be
important.
It might be a comma that vanishes in important temperaments, or it
might be a comma that notates important pitch classes.

Note that these are in one sense diametrically opposed since a comma
that vanishes in some temperament is obviously of no use in notating
any pitches of that temperament.

The sagittal project has so far focussed primarily on commas that are
important for notation relative to nominals in a chain of fifths, and
it is these that have been given the simplest symbols, as shown in
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/map/index.htm#mid

We describe in the XH article how we ordered commas for this purpose,
using the Scala scale archive. At least one person thought this was a
bad idea, but he was not forthcoming with any other concrete
suggestion relevant to our purpose, and I don't think any suggestions
he might have made would have resulted in much difference in the final
result.

But we certainly recognise the desire to notate all the most important
commas, including those that are important mainly because they vanish
in common or useful temperaments and those that notate important
pitches relative to chains of other generators. That is one of the
reasons why we added the left and right accents. We just haven't had
time to sit down and produce, and argue over, and hopefully agree
upon, the primary commas associated with all possible accented symbols
yet.

We'd welcome any suggestions. The basic idea is that we take the
abovementioned unaccented symbols and add a left accent up or down
which is worth a schisma of about 2 cents, and/or a right accent up or
down worth a schismina of about 0.4 cents. Double right accents are
also allowed but only without left accents. Now suggest what comma
each such accented symbol should represent.

In practice the accents can be dropped whenever this is unabiguous in
notating a particular tuning.

> c) a proposal for notating a set of accidentals that is -
> 1. easy to read - that is , identify and distinguish.
> 2. monochromatic - just black on white.
> 3. quick to write.
> 4. easy to write accurately.
> 5. proportionate in visual size to the interval notated.
> 6. invertible, so that the symbols for comma-type-x up and down
> are mirror-images.
>
> Now that's my shopping list - should I say "requirements specification"?
> :-) Surely all these smart people can design something along these
lines?
>

We think we have. All those things were certainly on our shopping list
too, in designing sagittal. In what ways do you think we have failed?

> What REALLY strikes me as strange is that so much effort has gone into
> designing notation systems - without any apparent agreement on points
> a) and b)!

IN regard to sagittal, this is simply false. There is a great deal of
agreement on the broad sweep of what makes a comma important. Of
course there will always be disagreement about the fine details.

> I could draw an analogy to programmers who rush in to write
> code before establishing the requirements. Worrying about HOW to do
> something is pointless without knowing WHAT we want to do ...

If you're talking about the development of sagittal here, then I can
only assume you are unaware of its history (which is breifly described
in several places on the sagittal website, and is available in all its
gory detail in the archives of this list).

Regards,
-- Dave

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Gene answered my comments & questions as follows:

________________________________________________________________________

>> a) an ordered list of "important" commas
>> b) a justification for any omissions - what makes a comma unimportant?

> I think an epimericity bound works pretty well to give the important
> commas; then any superparticular comma is important by definition. WE
> can also use badness measures for the corresponding temperament, and
> lattice distance questions also play a role, in that "closer" commas
> turn up more and are more useful. Past a certain point (the 11-limit,
> perhaps) the superparticulars are all you need.

I don't pretend to understand this answer ... yet! :-)
Where can I look up "epimericity" and "superparticular"?

>> What REALLY strikes me as strange is that so much effort has gone into
>> designing notation systems - without any apparent agreement on points
>> a) and b)!

>I think a and b have recieved a lot of attention, but not from the
>point of view of notation systems.

Good to know! What conclusions have researchers come to? ... preferably
in terms more "musical" than "mathematical", if possible.

>> Would it be possible to use Unicode instead of ASCII?

>An excellent question, for which only Manuel knows the answer since
>these have to be able to work with Scala.

Yes, it seems that we depend very largely on Scala for concise expression
of different tunings. It's good that Manuel is open to comments and
suggestions! :-) I will comment on my initial experiences with Scala on
the
tuning list.

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Dave,

Thank you for your detailed reply to my questions and comments.
Thanks also for understanding that they expressed my puzzlement
and confusion, rather than pretending to be an informed critique.
No way did I mean to diss any worker or their efforts to date;
since I'm still largely ignorant of what those efforts have been.
Think of me rather as someone who has stumbled into a forest,
enticed by the pretty flowers that glimmer there in the depths,
but without a clue to lead him through ... or out! Nor any knowledge
of what strange beasts, hobgoblins or pitfalls may lurk within ...

You wrote:

-----Original Message-----
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:41:29 -0000
From: "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...>

Dear Yahya,

-----------------8><--------Snip!

Regards,
-- Dave

________________________________________________________________________

Exactly what I need and want to do:
"ask that you first understand the foundation that is in place so far".

Yes, it's the "gory details" that have obscured the finely-formed limbs
of the warriors ... the thicket (that I've barely glimpsed in a few weeks)
that obscures the forest.

I'm off now to read what I can on the Sagittal website. Hopefully my
future criticism will be better-informed.

And I'm moved to add a new FAQ page to the tuning wiki; more details
on the tuning list.

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

hi Yahya,

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Thank you for your detailed reply to my questions and comments.
> Thanks also for understanding that they expressed my puzzlement
> and confusion, rather than pretending to be an informed critique.
> No way did I mean to diss any worker or their efforts to date;
> since I'm still largely ignorant of what those efforts have been.
> Think of me rather as someone who has stumbled into a forest,
> enticed by the pretty flowers that glimmer there in the depths,
> but without a clue to lead him through ... or out! Nor any
knowledge
> of what strange beasts, hobgoblins or pitfalls may lurk within ...

i just directed you to two short definitions in the
Tonalsoft Encyclopedia. i suggest you spend some time
browsing around in it, especially the longer pages.
that should give you a pretty good idea of "what strange
beasts, hobgoblins or pitfalls may lurk within".

... after that, if you spend some more time studying
the archives of this list, they may even become your friends!

;-)

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
microtonal music software

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

monz,

You wrote:
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:12:00 -0000
From: "monz" <monz@...>

hi Yahya,

...

... after that, if you spend some more time studying
the archives of this list, they may even become your friends!

;-)

-monz
________________________________________________________________________

Thank you, will do!

Regards,
Yahya

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