Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning-math RE: [tuning-math] Digest Number 1242

Monz,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

I've followed your links and downloaded both the zip file
of your first book and your presentation of Harmonielehre
for close study.

You write that it's clear to you that Schï¿½nberg did have
these JI implications in mind. I get the impression that
you believe that you may find - thru detailed and exhaustive
analysis - a particular key to understanding how Schï¿½nberg
thought when composing. It seems to me rather like the
Quest for the Holy Grail. :-) If this is indeed your expectation,
may I ask:

(1) How will you know when you've found it?
(2) How do you know it exists?

My view of Schï¿½nberg's career has always been that he was
always on a journey of discovery all his own; that he was a
Jungian "perceiving" type rather than a "judging" type; that
his ideas, no matter how well developed, would never reach a
final form that would for ever satisfy him. Instead, they would
go on developing for just as long as he lived and thought. In
consequence, his compositions were dictated, not by the
inexorable logic of his knowledge and discoveries to date, but
rather by his applied intuition which incorporated all he knew
and felt. In short, I suspect you may be chasing rainbows.

You wrote:
"... ambiguity was something that he built into his compositions
.... so it's difficult to unravel exactly what he may have had in
mind." My guess is that "difficult" may actually be "almost
impossible". I hate to be negative, but I don't understand your
confidence.

"... the fact that he and his circle of students kept their
ideas so secretive" certainly suggests, to my mind, the mystic
guru and his acolytes, rather than the master craftsman and
his apprentices, to borrow his own analogy.

Of course, you've studied him and his works much more closely
than I have, so you doubtless have grounds for confidence!
I wish you well in your search.

-----

You wrote:
"so the rest of the work is simply to do analysis of the
compositions ... and a lot of that has already been done
by others and sit on dusty univsersity library shelves
awaiting my discovery."

Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask members of this list
to see what they can uncover locally? Even if you have done so
before, it may be worth repeating the request from time to
time as new members arrive on the list.

Best,
Yahya

-----Original Message-----
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:05:20 -0000
From: "monz" <monz@tonalsoft.com>
Subject: retuning Schoenberg's pantonality in JI (was: Re: Digest Number
1240)

hi Yahya,

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:

>
> Thank you Gene!
>
> I agree that the bihexany-tuned version has much more
> colour and life than the 12-equal version.
>
> Monz,
>
> I'm intrigued ... precisely how do you envisage retuning
> Schï¿½nberg to get that "pantonal" feeling?

i wish i could give you an answer to that question
right now. i've been studying Schoenberg's theory
for years (decades, even) so as to be in a good position
to figure that out. but it will also require an
extremely detailed harmonic and melodic analysis of
a particular composition.

so far, the only concrete ideas i have are what i
published in my 1st book, _JustMusic: A New Harmony_:

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/book/book.htm

and what i have as a beginning for my 2nd book,
_Searching for Schoenberg's Pantonality_:

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/schoenberg/harm/1911-1922.htm

(for those who will be reading this post a few months
from now, these links should instead be found thru
the Tonalsoft Encyclopedia)

you can read right now what i've put in the latter
webpage ... what i endeavor to do there is to find
a 12-tone periodicity-block which describes 12-edo
the way Schoenberg used it in the 1911 edition of his
_Harmonielehre_. the final resulting lattice diagrams
are at the bottom of the page.

as for my book ... i made a 5-limit lattice of his
"Chart of the Regions" which appears in _Structural
Functions of Harmony_ (a very late work, 1949), and
did an exhaustive analysis of a single chord from his
amazing piece _Erwartung_ ... a chord which, BTW, was
also subjected to a just intonation analysis by
Martin Vogel -- i didn't find out about that until
after i had done my own.

but much more work is required to actually come up with
a just intonation tuning of one of his compositions
which i'd be willing to defend.

by 1910, when he wrote _Harmonielehre_, and possibly even
by the time he reached the period of "free atonality" (1908),
Schoenberg was thinking of 12-edo as representing 11-limit JI.
we know that 12-edo does *not* represent the primary 11-limit
ratios very well, and Schoenberg knew it too -- that ambiguity
was something that he built into his compositions of that
time. so it's difficult to unravel exactly what he may have
had in mind.

but from all my years of research on this, it's clear to
me that he *did* have these "JI implications" in mind.
the fact that he and his circle of students kept their
ideas so secretive doesn't help any ... now that just
about all of them are dead, it's very difficult to dig
any deeper than i already have.

so the rest of the work is simply to do analysis of the
compositions ... and a lot of that has already been done
by others and sit on dusty univsersity library shelves
awaiting my discovery.

-monz

________________________________________________________________________

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🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

hi Yahya,

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:

> Monz,
>
> Thank you for your detailed reply.
>
> I've followed your links and downloaded both the zip file
> of your first book and your presentation of Harmonielehre
> for close study.
>
> You write that it's clear to you that Schönberg did have
> these JI implications in mind. I get the impression that
> you believe that you may find - thru detailed and exhaustive
> analysis - a particular key to understanding how Schönberg
> thought when composing. It seems to me rather like the
> Quest for the Holy Grail. :-) If this is indeed your
> expectation, may I ask:
>
> (1) How will you know when you've found it?
> (2) How do you know it exists?
>
> My view of Schönberg's career has always been that he was
> always on a journey of discovery all his own; that he was a
> Jungian "perceiving" type rather than a "judging" type; that
> his ideas, no matter how well developed, would never reach a
> final form that would for ever satisfy him. Instead, they would
> go on developing for just as long as he lived and thought. In
> consequence, his compositions were dictated, not by the
> inexorable logic of his knowledge and discoveries to date, but
> rather by his applied intuition which incorporated all he knew
> and felt. In short, I suspect you may be chasing rainbows.

yes, well ... what you write is actually probably pretty
close to the mark. Schoenberg indeed was always on a
quest for the truth. if you're seriously interested in
this topic, you should become familiar (if you're not already)
with Webern's little book _The Path to the New Music_.
i posted about it here long ago:

/tuning/topicId_2944.html#2944

the only evidence i can present for my interpretation of
Schoenberg's "JI implications" is what he presents himself
in _Harmonielehre_ and his other writings. it's quite
clear that he believed that 12-edo was supposed to be
representing ratios up to the 11-limit, and in his
later (1934) lecture _Problems of Harmony_ he presents
12-edo as representing the 13-limit.

there's this letter form Schoenberg to Joseph Yasser
(1934.06.10), written shortly after Schoenberg's move
to America, and i believe the opening of it refers to
_Problems of Harmony_:

http://www.schoenberg.at/lettersneu/search_show_letter.php?
ID_Number=2705

(remove the line break)

see the third paragraph (the second long paragraph), where
Schoenberg tells Yasser that his music has always required
tempered tuning. here is Yasser's translation of the 2nd, 3rd,
and 4th paragraphs, with bracketed comments by me:

>> "... I have presented the little tabulation of overtones
>> not in a scientific fashion, not as a theory, but solely
>> as a handy assertion that the connection of tones rests on
>> their relationship and that even the chromatic scale appears
>> to be justified through circumstances of a natural character.
>> Far be it from me to contend that your claim does not more
>> readily meet scientific demands. I am only trying to indicate
>> that the chromatic scale is being hinted at through the
>> relationship of overtones which the ear but unclearly (!)
>> recognizes. [exclamation point Schoenberg's] One might
>> compare this to a hint received by a painter [German "Mahler",
>> the composer to whose memory _Harmonielehre_ was dedicated]
>> through his model which he freely re-interprets, unlike a
>> photographer who reproduces the original as precisely as
>> his lenses will permit (their defect being corrected by him
>> through the addition of a pertinent 'atmosphere') [German
>> "Stimmung", the same word used for "tuning"). A scientist,
>> however, must always strive to transmit the pure truth even
>> though the defect may be more beautiful, more pleasant, or
>> more practical. I believe this to be one of the divergencies
>> between art and science."
>>
>> ...indeed whenever I have had occasion to take up intonation
>> with string players, I have always insisted on its tempered
>> form.(...) To be sure, one of the difficulties of my music
>> is that the classically trained ear, hearing a note c#, may
>> ask whether this should really not be db. In reality, however,
>> this is nothing else but the measured half-tone betwen d and c,
>> regardless of any harmonic considerations. And I believe that
>> a listener who, in his hearing, combines other tones than
>> those I have indicated, is not sufficiently cultivated. To
>> be musical, then, means to have an ear in the sense of music
>> and not in the sense of nature. A musical ear must have
>> assimilated the tempered scale. And a singer who produces
>> natural pitches is unmusical, just as one choosing to act on
>> a street in a "natural" way would be considered indecent.
>>
>> I do not wish these words to imply that I have any quarrel
>> with your theory, with which I am as yet not sufficiently
>> acquainted with to either approve or disapprove. I merely
>> wish to emphasize the attitude of the composer toward the
>> theory of composition, which has no connection with other
>> disciplines."

(thanks to Daniel Wolf for posting that on the tuning list
years ago)

it's quite clear there that Schoenberg intended performers
of his music to keep it tuned strictly in 12-edo. given
the ambiguity inherent in accepting 12-edo as a temperament
for 11-limit and 13-limit intervals, this is not surprising.
in addition, Schoenberg's overtone chart (in _Harmonielehre_)
clearly shows that he envisioned the 12-edo pitches as
carrying multiple "JI meanings".

another point that should be made is that Schoenberg
thruout his life wrote about how great composers tapped
into some "mystery" which defies analysis.

PS -- try to keep the subject line intact when responding,
instead of keeping the "Digest Number xxxx" which is
generated automatically when responding from the Digest
format.

-monz

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Monz,

Yes, I understood this. But I also enjoy study, so thought that
as a practical test of my comprehension, I would endeavour to
construct the diagrams from the text! I could be far too
ambitious; then again, I'm up for a challenge.

Regards,
Yahya

-----Original Message-----
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:30:32 -0000
From: "monz"
Subject: Re: retuning Schoenberg's pantonality in JI

hi again Yahya,

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:

> Monz,
>
> Thank you for your detailed reply.
>
> I've followed your links and downloaded both the zip file
> of your first book and your presentation of Harmonielehre
> for close study.

also please note that the zip file of my _JustMusic_ book
does not contain any of the lattice diagrams or musical
illustrations ... and those are really the whole point of
the book.

-monz

________________________________________________________________________

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Monz,

-----Original Message-----
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:26:47 -0000
From: "monz"
Subject: Re: retuning Schoenberg's pantonality in JI

hi Yahya,

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:

> Monz,
>
... In
> consequence, his compositions were dictated, not by the
> inexorable logic of his knowledge and discoveries to date, but
> rather by his applied intuition which incorporated all he knew
> and felt. In short, I suspect you may be chasing rainbows.

[monz]
yes, well ... what you write is actually probably pretty
close to the mark. Schoenberg indeed was always on a
quest for the truth. if you're seriously interested in
this topic, you should become familiar (if you're not already)
with Webern's little book _The Path to the New Music_.
i posted about it here long ago:

/tuning/topicId_2944.html#2944

[Yahya] Yes, I read it years ago as a callow youth; perhaps it
would be worth rereading in the light of all that I've learned
since.

[monz]
the only evidence i can present for my interpretation of
Schoenberg's "JI implications" is what he presents himself
in _Harmonielehre_ and his other writings. it's quite
clear that he believed that 12-edo was supposed to be
representing ratios up to the 11-limit, and in his
later (1934) lecture _Problems of Harmony_ he presents
12-edo as representing the 13-limit.

[Yahya] Doesn't that imply that he wasn't interested in
using JI at all, but rather in suggesting it, by exploiting the
ambiguities that 12-edo creates? Some of the passages you
quoted (below) state quite clearly that he thought that to be
"natural" in tuning was to be musically wrong ... However, if
what you're saying is that S was well aware of the harmonic
implications of the higher partials, I'm sure you're right.
Do you think that a performance of any of his works in JI
would be nearer to, or further from, the effect he intended?
Surely to do so would destroy some of the links between
chords, and their ability to function as pivots within the
12-edo scheme, don't you think?

[monz]
there's this letter form Schoenberg to Joseph Yasser
(1934.06.10), written shortly after Schoenberg's move
to America, and i believe the opening of it refers to
_Problems of Harmony_:

http://www.schoenberg.at/lettersneu/search_show_letter.php?
ID_Number=2705

(remove the line break)

(thanks to Daniel Wolf for posting that on the tuning list
years ago)

[Yahya]
Thanks for passing this on.

[monz]
it's quite clear there that Schoenberg intended performers
of his music to keep it tuned strictly in 12-edo. given
the ambiguity inherent in accepting 12-edo as a temperament
for 11-limit and 13-limit intervals, this is not surprising.
in addition, Schoenberg's overtone chart (in _Harmonielehre_)
clearly shows that he envisioned the 12-edo pitches as
carrying multiple "JI meanings".

another point that should be made is that Schoenberg
thruout his life wrote about how great composers tapped
into some "mystery" which defies analysis.

[Yahya]
Which supports my contention that he was inclined to
mysticism ... as many artists seem to be.

[monz]
PS -- try to keep the subject line intact when responding,
instead of keeping the "Digest Number xxxx" which is
generated automatically when responding from the Digest
format.

[Yahya]
Sorry! I try to catch them, but since I usually read mail once
a day in digests, sometimes I hit "Send" too soon ...

________________________________________________________________________

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