RE: RE: Iranian Music

On 13-SEP-1995 14:23:06.63 Mr. Liu (linusliu@HK.Super.NET) wrote:

>Only a few days ago, I posted the intervals of the "Chinese Scale".
>It so happens that my scale is exactly the same as Mr. Moradi's
>Iranian music, SYSTEM I:
>>(1) {C:[1/1] , G:3/2 , D:9/8, A:27/16 , E:81/64 , B:243/128 }
>Rewritting it out becomes:
> C-9/8-D-9/8-E-(16/15)-(F)-(10/9)-G-9/8-A-9/8-B-(16/15)-(C')
> 1/1 9/8 81/64 (27/20?) 3/2 27/16 243/128 (81/40?)

The scale which Mr. Linus Linu had introduced as Chinese scale is not
the same as the mode which we introduced as Iranian mode. The forth
interval in Meadle East music is very essential and exactly equals to
4/3. In system I, we emphasis that the semitone is 256/243, not 16/15.
(16/15 and 10/9 are related to System II). The interval 27/20 instead of
4/3 has no use in Iranian music at all.

Chines(Linu's)> 1/1 9/8 81/64 (27/20?) 3/2 27/16 243/128 (81/40?)
Ancient System> 1/1 9/8 81/64 4/3* 3/2 27/16 243/128 2/1*

Ancient system is the base for the current oriental systems.
System I, part 1 which Mr. Linu refrenced is a part of the ancient
mode which was first introduced by Pythagoras (600 yrs BC). It's
not our invention.

Mr. Linu also wrote:
>It is a great dismay that Mr. Moradi also gave the mean half-tone
>of 10/9 (lima), and gave it the very approximate ratio of 65536/59049,
>which shows that Mr. Moradi is not concerned about true accuracy.

10/9 is not half tone or lima, 65536/59049 is the exact value for
lima+lima, which Ormavi (-1294 DC), the great Iranian sage and
musician has introduced; This interval, indicates Ormavi's system.
Maraghi (-1434 DC) assumed this interval as 10/9 (more than 100 years
before Zarlino 1517-1590 DC). The difference between 10/9 and
65536/59049 is 1.95 cents, quite toleratable.

Our most important references were:

1- Al Farabi, Abunasr Mohammad (874-950), Kitab al Musiqa Al Kabir (Great
music book) Cairo 1969 (in Arabic)
2-Ormavi, Safi od-din (-1294) Al Adwar, translated to Farsi- Revue Musical,
Tehran 1960-61
3-Qotb od-din Shirazi (-1310) Dorrat ot-Taj , Tehran 1922
4-Maraqi, Abdol-Qader (-1434) Maqased Al Alhan , Elmi Farhangi prs.
Tehran 1966
5-Maraqi, Abdol-Qader Jame Al-Alhan ,Elmi Farhangi prs. Tehran 1987
6-Vaziri, AliNaqi, Musiqie nazari , Published by author, Tehran 1935
7-El Helow, Salim LA MUSIQUE THEORIQUE ,Beirut 1961 (in Arabic)
8-Musiki ve Nota ,Istanbul 1969-1972 (in Turkish)

(All references are in Farsi unless otherwise mentioned)
Reference No 1 is translated to many languages, including French
(by R.d'Erlanger, 1930) and English.

I got my BS in music in 1970 from the Fine-Art faculity of Tehran university.
While I was a student I lectured reference number 4, representing of
prof. Dr. Barkeshli; since then I'm working on the theory of Iranian
music, and for 30 years I produced Iranian traditional music programs
in Radio and TV.
Mojanab (Minor tone) is the essential interval in ITM (Iranian traditional
music), although Vosta (normal third) is the most important interval in
one of the most popular modes (Segah). [Vosta = Mojanab + whole tone (9/8)].
>From exprimental studies on 3 most trustworthy singers, we measured
the intervals in mode 'Segah', and find Mojanab = 25/23 (144.36 cents),
Vosta = 225/184 (348.29 c). I could generalize this measurment to
other mods of ITM. I searched in my references for this intervals
and the nearest was 162/149 (144.83c) introduced by Farabi (Ref#1).
In next searach, I find that Farabi had vaguely and indirectly
introduced 88/81 (143.51c) in relation with 12/11 (Mojanab analogous
with Vosta-Zalzal = 27/22) : 88/81= (32/27) / (12/11).
(32/27 = Vosta-Qadime)
Since the different between 88/81 and 25/23 is very small we selected
this interval, and used for playing with computer. It was confirmed
by musicians. So 11/9 is the Vosta analogous with this Mojanab.
(88/81 * 9/8 = 11/9)
According to Arab musicologists, Mojanab = 12/11 and Vosta-Zalzal = 27/22
is used in arabian music, but not in ITM.

We had wrote:
>==========================================================================
>SYSTEM II is just as SYSTEM I but the minor tone and Major semitone are
>different. Instead of 88/81, we use (256*256)/(243*243) = 65536/59049 which
>the theorists assume = 10/9, and Instead of 2187/2048, we use 16/15.
>==========================================================================

We have not recieved the system which Mr. Linu mentioned, but the system
he mentioned in his letter is completly alien to the Iranian music.

We have also worked on other systems for Oriental Music, but have
not published the results yet.

Regards,
Freydun Moradi

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I would propose that the lens we look through in analyzing the
similarities/relationships between musics of antiquity be aimed at
whether or not the 4/3 is prominent. The tetrachords of ancient Greece
kept the 4/3 inviolable, even as they could be connected for over 2
octaves and could modulate. Similarly they serve as pillars to Iranian
music as recently pointed out by Mr. Moradi in his latest post.
Likewise, Bulgarian music maintains this 4/3 essence, even as smaller
intervals are reputed to have no proper names.

In Iran the Dastgah is 4/3 concerned, which is then part of a larger
Maqam. Persian/Greek/Thracian (now Bulgarian) were connected musical
cultures that counted on the stability of the 4/3.

The 3/2 as a basic building block for scales, as 3-limit just intonation,
as an ingredient in the aforementioned systems, is paramount in many
other musics. These include Babylonia and Sumer (according to tablets
found over a decade ago and reported in the California press), European
Middle Ages (probably of Celt origin), much of Chinese music, etc. Our
inherited 12ET is a temperament of this interval, even as it is 11th
comma meantone, a homogenization of 12 well-tempered or unequal tuning
(for reasons of performers travelling for concerts with new orchestras),
an accomadation within 16 cents of 5-limit just intonation, etc.

Johnny Reinhard
American Festival of Microtonal Music
318 East 70th Street, Suite 5FW
New York, New York 10021 USA
(212)517-3550/fax (212) 517-5495
reinhard@ios.com


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