Schoenberg was a fiddle player (2)

Sorry everyone, pressed the send button prematurely. There's no 'are
you sure?' on this thing --

POL wrote:

>>Carl: the idea that consonance is not important in serialism is
>>very odd. Sorry, can't let that one pass!

Carl replied:

>Sorry, maybe I should have specified *atonal* serialism. Insomuchas
>Norman Henry insists the subject of the last fugue in the WTC can be
>viewed as a tone row ----- If so, can you offer a definition of
>serialism, and a definition of atonality? ----- What I've heard
>of serialist music (not much), seeemed like nonsense to me.

It seems reasonable that there are many different explanations of
what serialism and atonality are. Rather than try to define these
terms, try listening sometime to (not meaning to patronise):

Schoenberg: Verklarte Nacht (Ensemble Intercontemporain, Sony)
Berg: Piano Sonata (Barenboim on DG, maybe)
Berg: Violin Concerto
Schoenberg: Suite op 25 (Pollini on DG)
Berg: Wozzeck
Webern: Funf Satz fur Streich Quartette Op. 5

Clearly, none of these works are 'serial' (Boulez came later) nor are
any of them wholly 'atonal' - although the Op 25 Suite pushes that
way. But I would say that a familiarity with some of these works
would be the best introduction for getting any understanding of
'serialism' proper - although, apart from a short period of
experimentalism in the 50's, it would seem there are extremely few
_strictly_ serial works (Boulez Structures Book 1, for example).

You might perhaps find Barraque's "au dela du hasard", for example,
quite incomprehensible without the above background. But in certain
passages, when the vocalists sing in various sixths and thirds etc,
there is little doubt that the intention depends on consonance if not
just intonation. (A 3 CD set of Barraque's complete works (in
stunning digital) has just been released on cpo. There's nothing
Xenharmonik here, but it is fabulous music. However, in case
anyone's interested, please note that the performance of the Piano
Sonata by Stefan Litwin is horrendously slow - much better seek out
Roger Woodward's indispensable account on LP (not available at the
moment)).

My point about consonance being relevant to atonal/serial/"complex"
music is simply that the (relative) consonance of 12-ET was
important to its development - a point echoed and developed nicely
by Graham Breed:

>>>>> Then again, perhaps Schoenberg had a piano.

Schoenberg did indeed have a piano.

>The general innovations of the 2nd Viennese School look like a
>direct response to 12-equal. And that's the realities of the
>temperament, rather an idealised, transposable 5-limit scale.

and I find this very plausible, having argued along these lines
myself. However,

>As he was self
>taught, he wouldn't have had experience of choral or orchestral
>work. So, his primary experience of music would have been through
>12-equal. He was, I think, the first composer to specify that a
>string quartet should be played in 12-equal

Hmmm. Schoenberg was an accomplished string player, from an
early age, deeply familiar with playing 1st Viennese School. He was
also a regular concert goer. So ------ But Graham, do you have a
source for the claim in your last sentence?

Also

>The 2nd Viennese manner of constructing chords was to take an
>interval and double it a major seventh above.

ermmmm, nice idea, but look at some scores; yes, it occurs.

>However, I see no need to explain his general style as anything but
>an _avoidance_ of integer ratios.

But a greater 'avoidance' (say, using 11- or 13-ET) would never have
provided Schoenberg with the language he neeeded. So it surely can't
be as simple as that (?)

On another tack:

I asked:

>>I would therefore ask Paul whether, when he does the experiment
>>using timbres as different from each other as a french horn or an
>>oboe or a guitar or cello, this gives differing results?

Paul E replied:

>I think my point would be made with any of those timbres.

Did you try it? In the very small interval you mention, I find it
extremely difficult to be clear about what I hear and what I imagine
I hear. However, try sweeping a trumpet through an fifth
(putting up with mickey mouse effect) against a 1/1 drone, and
comparing this to the same sweep in a violin. Personally, I don't
find the peaks and troughs identical (although they are very
similar).

My point is not that this would have special signifiance for a tuning
system (since, all instruments considered, things will even out), but
merely that the notion of *ratio* as the unique explanation of
'intervallic' character is not complete.

Patrick O-L