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RE: reply to Bill Alves

🔗"Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@...>

3/31/1998 12:39:34 PM
>}>I'm not sure why one would expect that. Is there some size of minor
>}>seventh that, to you, is a dividing line, such that a slightly smaller
>}>one resolves inward, while a slightly larger one resolves outward? Try
>}>answering this question:
>}>
>}>"Given that the diminished fifth resolves inward and the augmented
>}>fourth resolves outward, wouldn't one expect that, ideally, the
>}>augmented fourth to be a larger interval than the diminished fifth?"
>}>
>}Yes.
>
>}You really do believe that? So now tell me, what is, ideally, the dividing
>line between minor sevenths }which tend to resolve inwards and those that
>tend to resolve outwards?
>
>}>If you answer that in the affirmative, then we just have to be content
>}>saying that meantone temperament does not have all the properties of an
>}>"ideal" tuning.
>
>}Yes, though there are different sized tritones in a given meantone tuning
>}of 12 keys.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean. In a given meantone tuning, there is only one
>size of augmented fourth, and one size of diminished fifth. Enharmonic
>equivalents (in the 12-tone sense) cannot be used in meantone temperament.
>
>}Of course, music is an art, and there are many different things in musical
>}context that contribute to the feeling of, what shall we call it, the
>}resolution tendency or naturalness of resolution. However, I do believe
>}that one of these criteria in music of this period is that the shortest
>}path to resolution tends to be the most "natural" -- thus the importance of
>}the leading tone and its sharpening in minor keys.
>
>So I take it you don't like the leading tone in meantone temperament, and for
>some reason it's even worse in minor keys?
>
>}By the way, I talked to someone the other day who argued for equal
>}temperament because of the importance of the ambiguities possible in such
>}chords (the favorite Romantic trick of interpreting a dominant seventh as a
>}German augmented sixth or vice-versa). The ability to reinterpret such
>}chord structures multiple ways, he felt, was at the heart of our tonal
>}system. (I wonder how Huygens would have felt about that -- do you think
>}he's arguing for a distinction between the sounds of the two chords?)
>
>Such reinterpretation may be at the heart of what many Romantic composers
>were doing, but in Huygens' time composers had not yet availed themselves of
>such tricks. You should inform your friend of Handel's meantone organ with 16
>tones to the octave, and that tonal thinking arose in a meantone, not ET,
>environment. Had Huygens had a bit more influence over musicians, Romantic
>composers would have been working in 31-tone equal temperament, and other
>sorts of "puns" would have arisen than the ones your friend is accustomed to.
>
>}I explained, recalling the thread here some time ago on the possibility of
>}musical puns in just intonation, that such reinterpretations were not
>}impossible in JI, especially if the number of tones in the tuning system
>}were greater than twelve.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by this, but after Daniel Wolf posted an expanded
>definition of "pun" to include some JI situations, Paul Hahn (if I recall
>correctly) gave a good argument for why the term "pun"
>
> Finally, though, we failed to convince each other
>to cross over what was ultimately a difference is aesthetic preference.
>Perhaps he felt a greater attachment to the tonal-egalitarian traditions of
>late romantic chromaticism, atonality, and serialism than do I.
>
>Bill
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
>^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
>^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
>^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>------------------------------
>
>Topic No. 5
>
>Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:57:55 +0100 (BST)
>From: REUBEN EWAN JACOBS
>To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
>Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Klezmer tunings
>Message-ID:
>
>> Hello, my name is Reuben Jacobs. I'm a 2nd year BSC Musical Instrument
>> Technology student at London Guildhall University and I am starting a
>> project in which the aim is to retune a MIDI keyboard to a
>> tuning other than equal temperament and to then create a MIDI file of a
>> composition written in this tuning.
>>
>> The tuning I would most like to use is a Klezmer tuning. However, I have
>> had difficulty finding such a tuning written down. I would therefore be
>> very grateful if someone could send me details of a Klezmer tuning and a
>> composition written using it (I was told of this address by my teacher
>> Tony Salinas).
>>
>> During my research into this subject (in the very few books that I have
>> found which mention Klezmer) I have started to get the feeling that maybe
>> Klezmer tuning is very close to equal temperament. I'm sure taht someone
>> will know. If this is the case I would really appreciate if somebody
>> could send me deatils of another Jewish tuning (such as a Greek,
>> Iranian, Yemeni, Landino, Turkish etc tuning) which is noticeably
>>different
>> from equal temperaemet.
>>
>> If someone does manage to help me I will more than be happy to send them a
>> copy of my MIDI file when my project is complete. THANKYOU.
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Topic No. 6
>
>Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:53:17 -0600 (CST)
>From: mr88cet@texas.net (Gary Morrison)
>To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
>Subject: 88CET Ear Training CDs, Part 9
>Message-ID:
>
>What's on my 88CET CDs?
>-----------------------
>
> They have 66 groups of exercises. Here they are categorized by general
>topic matter:
>
>Transposition, Pseudokeys and Pseudokey Signatures:
>- "Repeat after me the upward circle of fifths"
>- "I'll list a note, and you tell me the notes one and two fifths
> above it."
>- "Repeat after me the pseudokey signatures of the various sharp-
> based pseudokeys"
>- "I'll list a pseudokey and you tell me the pseudokey signature."
>- The analogous above four exercises for the downward circle of
> fifths and flat-based pseudokey signatures.
>- "Tell me the pseudokey signatures and then, one-by-one, the notes
> of the ascending pseudodiatonic scales."
>- Preview of singing 7:4 ratios (because 88CET pseudodiatonic scales
> repeat in 7:4s). Listening exercise, then singing (with correct
> note name).
>- "Sing along with the following pseudodiatonic scales."
>
>Interval-Hearing:
>- "Minor wholetones." Listening, then singing.
>- Subminor thirds: Pairs of naturals that are a subminor third
> apart (once you memorize the naturals, it's easy to extrapolate
> the sharps and flats).
>- Subminor thirds: Listening, then singing them, ascending then
> descending, with correct note name.
>- Supramajor thirds: Usage in pseudodiatonic scale. Key indepen-
> dent (by scale-step number), then by naturals. First repeating
> them as stated on tape, then quizzing.
>- Supramajor thirds: Listening, then singing them, ascending then
> descending, with correct note name.
>- Neutral thirds: Same as done with supramajor thirds.
>- Operating within a pseudokey framework: "[an A sounds] This is
> scale step 1. [tone changes to C] This interval is [pause for
> answer] subminor, so this is step [pause for answer] 3." This
> is repeated for other thirds within pseudokey framework,
> occasionally injecting a note that does not fit within the
> pseudokey.
>- A brief stint with perfect fifths - a sing-along.
>
>A Quick Break from Interval-Hearing:
>- 7 general rules stated for memorization, and then a quiz about them.
>
>Interval-Hearing Continued:
>- Tritones: Same exercises as done above with supramajor thirds.
>- Three exercises in distinguishing supramajor thirds, tritones and
> minor sixths. (This is one of my weird, nonsensical hang-ups:
> somehow I sometimes get these three intervals confused.)
> - Listen to supramajor thirds.
> - Listen to some minor sixths.
> - Play various supramajor thirds, tritones, and minor sixths, and
> I am to identify them. Occasionally inject a major sixth or
> off-fourth interval.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of TUNING Digest 1370
>*************************

🔗mr88cet@texas.net (Gary Morrison)

3/31/1998 7:18:21 PM
>> During my research into this subject (in the very few books that I have
>> found which mention Klezmer) I have started to get the feeling that maybe
>> Klezmer tuning is very close to equal temperament. I'm sure taht someone
>> will know. If this is the case I would really appreciate if somebody
>> could send me deatils of another Jewish tuning (such as a Greek,
>> Iranian, Yemeni, Landino, Turkish etc tuning) which is noticeably different
>> from equal temperaemet.


John (Chalmers), does "Divisions of the Tetrachord" have information on
such tunings?