2nd tuning forum CD?

There have been 4 folks show interest in being on the forum CD since
we filled the 1st one up...if we can get enough interest, how about
Volume 2? I will go in on another one as well, so that makes 5...5 more,
and we have another one...think about it, and post me privately...Hstick
PS...where is everybody? I miss the action...


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From: Alex Van Wey
Subject: Fretless versus Fretted
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>Now is it better to have fretless instruments which can play any
>tuning at anytime, or a Fretted one?

I'd be willing to bet that John Starrett, Neil Haverstick, and several
others would have lots of ideas along those lines.

For whatever it's work, there is certainly no dirth of
non-tuning-related considerations about whether to use frets or not.
You'll get a somewhat duller tone from a fretless instrument than on a
fretted one, for example. ("Dull" as in less bright, not as in boring!)

Also, a fretless plucked-string instrument will have a lot less sustain
than a fretted one. But since you said that you're a bassist, the
heaviness of the strings themselves will reduce that distinction.




>In Just Intonation, what does "limit" refer to?

The limit is the largest odd or prime number (depending on who you ask)
in the frequency ratios in the tuning. Most JI investigators find that
each odd or prime outlines a new, broad class of harmony. I personally
think that there's a lot of truth in that idea, but that there are many
other factors that have to be considered, some with about equal weight.




>Also, has anyone tried Irrational Ratio Intonation?
>Like pi/3, pi/1, square root of 2/1, square root of 3/1, or even
>square root of 2/suare root of 3?

There are several tuning types that involve irrationals. As you alluded
with your observation about the square-root-of-2 tritone, any equal
temperament, or any kind of temperament for that matter, involves
irrational numbers.

Brian McLaren, Erv Wilson, and others have been investigating NJNET
(NonJust, NonEqual-Tempered) tunings, which are based upon transcendental
numbers like pi, e, and such. Most people on this forum, best I can tell,
have found more mathematical interest in the idea than musical interest.
But that is certainly not to say that it isn't musical value in them.

Also, there are tunings like Wendy Carlos' Alpha, Beta, and Gamma, or
the 88CET tuning I've been investigating. They are chosen not to represent
ANY ratio exactly, not even the octave, but to represent some set of ratios
as accurately as possible. These have generated a lot of interest, but are
certainly no panacea; they're just several of many interesting tuning
possibilities, each with its own intriguing "sound".

And there's Charles Lucy, who promotes a meantone tuning based upon a
major third of 1/pi octaves. I think it's fair to say that the majority of
the discussion on this forum about "LucyTuning" has been more skeptical
than positive.




>Mathematically, it appears that 6 in 12tet (tritone) is square root of
>2/1.

Yes indeedie.




What about a standard notation that can accurately capture any tuning?
(freqeuncy,volume,time)

Two people to talk to along those lines are Ezra Simms and Johnny
Reinhard. Johnny is on the list, but I don't think Ezra is.


SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
From: gagaku@cats.ucsc.edu (Fred Lieberman)
Subject: Lou Harrison book on the way...
PostedDate: 28-02-98 18:34:59
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>An interesting cultural similarity is the 'oud in the Middle East.
>
>Meaning "wood" in Arabic, and the impetus for the "lute" in Europe, the
>'oud alternates between fretted and unfretted ever 200 years or so.
>Apparently, this is to change its tone, not its tuning. Presently, the
>'oud is fretted.

I have spoken with a Middle East ethnomusicologist from UCLA about this
issue, and, according to him (and most other evidence I've seen), the oud
is currently unfretted except in Greece.

Bill

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oops -- that was a typo: The Oud is indeed unfretted in the Middle East.

Johnny Reinhard
Director
American Festival of Microtonal Music
318 East 70th Street, Suite 5FW
New York, New York 10021 USA
(212)517-3550/fax (212) 517-5495
reinhard@idt.net
http://www.echonyc.com/~jhhl/AFMM

On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Bill Alves wrote:

> >An interesting cultural similarity is the 'oud in the Middle East.
> >
> >Meaning "wood" in Arabic, and the impetus for the "lute" in Europe, the
> >'oud alternates between fretted and unfretted ever 200 years or so.
> >Apparently, this is to change its tone, not its tuning. Presently, the
> >'oud is fretted.
>
> I have spoken with a Middle East ethnomusicologist from UCLA about this
> issue, and, according to him (and most other evidence I've seen), the oud
> is currently unfretted except in Greece.
>
> Bill
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
> ^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
> ^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
> ^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

An interesting cultural similarity is the 'oud in the Middle East.

Meaning "wood" in Arabic, and the impetus for the "lute" in Europe, the
'oud alternates between fretted and unfretted ever 200 years or so.
Apparently, this is to change its tone, not its tuning. Presently, the
'oud is fretted.

Johnny Reinhard
Director
American Festival of Microtonal Music
318 East 70th Street, Suite 5FW
New York, New York 10021 USA
(212)517-3550/fax (212) 517-5495
reinhard@idt.net
http://www.echonyc.com/~jhhl/AFMM

> Oops -- that was a typo: The Oud is indeed unfretted in the Middle East.

Which I can confirm. I picked up an Egyptian Oud recently that uses
mother-of-pearl and laquer (sp?) on the fingerboard, and different from
the lute, is performed with a plectrum (traditionally an Eagles feather)
to double-pick in a very impulsive fashion. With the right tension
strings, you get a very clear tone without buzz because of the amount of
energy imparted into the string. You do need to be "fretting" on the
very tip of the finger, I must try the sarangi fingernail stopping.
Interestingly, there is not a saddle like in a guitar.

I bought it because I liked the sound and felt it would aid playing
alternative tunings, without having to build or commission a special
guitar, resetting sliding frets etc, and could draw on lutherie
experience of a traditionally fretless, plucked instrument. I hope over
time it will aid training my intonational sense.

I was interested to read the Oud in the past has used frets, does
someone have a reference or examples? Other Levant instruments like the
Saz and Tar use tied on frets, which of course the Lute has used, the
Bouzouki and I believe it's arabic cousin, the Buzuk, use hammered in
frets.
---
Leigh Computer Science, University of Western Australia
Smith +61-8-9380-3778 leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (NeXTMail/MIME)

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