what "well temperament" means

Greetings<
Carl writes:
>There is the question of what "well temperament" means. I have most often
>seen it used to mean "circular temperament" Circular temperament, as I
understand it, is
>any temperament where the sharps and flats are the same inside 12 >fifths
Werckmeister, Kirnberger, Young, etc.

Hmmm, I am not sure I understand the "same inside 12 fifths definition",
could I ask for more clarification???
I would vote to use Well Temperament to describe the irregular,
circulating, non-restrictive tunings that seemed to have begun with
Werckmiester, and found perfection in the Young. This is a little looser
definition that what I think Carl has described.
Jorgensen writes: " they are unrestricticve, circulating temperaments
allowing modulation thorugh all the keys without encountering wolf intervals".
I think that a good definition of well temperament should include the lack of
wolves, However, how shall we define wolf? anything more than a comma?
Ronnie Milsap, (who had his other tuner come retune his piano the day after I
introduced him to Mr Young), started calling "wolf" at about 18 cents in the
maj3rd...........
Also, Jorgensen writes " the varying sizes of major thirds are placed in
strict order, whereby they change regularly in patterns from smallest to
largest and back to smallest while modulating through a series of fourths or
fifths around the circle. The form of tonality in these irregular temperaments
is , therefore, regular. "
This is an important distinction. Many musicians think the irregular
temperaments just scattered differing levels of dissonance around, willy-
nilly, and you never know what a key might sound like. In fact, virtually all
of the writings about tunings in the Well Tempered era, ( which I am taking to
be 1700-1850) seem to refer to this form, and it is logical to assume that
composers were using the same basic set of resources in tunings.
How do I see it? Meantone forces black and white decisions on
enharmonic choices, the Well Temperaments demand a predictable palette of
tempering gradations, ( which I call a "Harmonic Toolbox"),. and 12 TET
doesn't let you make any choices at all.......
Regards,
Ed Foote
Precision Piano Works
Nashville, Tn


SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
From: mr88cet@texas.net (Gary Morrison)
Subject: Re: Bach again
PostedDate: 05-12-97 15:57:58
SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH
ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
$MessageStorage: 0
$UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH
RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH
RouteTimes: 05-12-97 15:56:09-05-12-97 15:56:10,05-12-97 15:56:01-05-12-97 15:56:02
DeliveredDate: 05-12-97 15:56:02
Categories:
$Revisions:

Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2
9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256564.00520A17; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:56:05 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA07174; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:57:58 +0100
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:57:58 +0100
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA07171
Received: (qmail 3669 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1997 06:57:55 -0800
Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1)
by localhost with SMTP; 5 Dec 1997 06:57:55 -0800
Message-Id:
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu

On 5 Dec 97 at 12:06, Polychroni Moniodis wrote:

> Just a quick glance at the few intervals presented found errors:
>
> p. 19: 54/49 should be 50/49

The 54/49 (= 168 c.) is correct; guess I let my disappointment get
the best of me.


Polychroni Moniodis


SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
From: "Paul H. Erlich"
Subject: !@#$%^&* to Dan Wolf
PostedDate: 05-12-97 22:03:37
SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH
ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
$MessageStorage: 0
$UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH
RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH
RouteTimes: 05-12-97 22:01:48-05-12-97 22:01:49,05-12-97 22:01:39-05-12-97 22:01:40
DeliveredDate: 05-12-97 22:01:40
Categories:
$Revisions:

Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2
9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256564.0073839C; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:01:43 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA07422; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:03:37 +0100
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:03:37 +0100
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA07417
Received: (qmail 16942 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1997 13:03:29 -0800
Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1)
by localhost with SMTP; 5 Dec 1997 13:03:29 -0800
Message-Id:
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu

At 20:28 05/12/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>If anyone knows of a decent treatment of this subject in English, in
>particular with regard to Zalzal, Al-Farabi, and Safi ad-Din, it
>would be most appreciated.

I'd recommend
The Modal System of Arab and Persian Music by O.Wright
London Oriental Series Vol 28 Published by Oxford University Press in 1978.

In it you'll find plenty of maqamat and tetrachords notated in cents if I
remember correctly.

If you're looking for lute frettings and tunings then the two sources that
I've found useful are
New Oxford History of Music Vol 1 - Ancient and Oriental music
and
The Greek Aulos by Kathleen Schlesinger. Methuen 1939 (regrettably out of
print)

Brian Lee


SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
From: mr88cet@texas.net (Gary Morrison)
Subject: An Odd Clef for 88CET Guitar?
PostedDate: 06-12-97 03:39:29
SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH
ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
$MessageStorage: 0
$UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH
RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH
RouteTimes: 06-12-97 03:37:46-06-12-97 03:37:47,06-12-97 03:37:37-06-12-97 03:37:37
DeliveredDate: 06-12-97 03:37:37
Categories:
$Revisions:

Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2
9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256565.000E6DC4; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:37:36 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA07764; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:39:29 +0100
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:39:29 +0100
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA07760
Received: (qmail 2450 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1997 18:39:27 -0800
Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1)
by localhost with SMTP; 5 Dec 1997 18:39:27 -0800
Message-Id:
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu

On 5 Dec 97 at 19:30, Brian Lee wrote:

Dear Brian,

> At 20:28 05/12/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >
> >If anyone knows of a decent treatment of this subject in English, in
> >particular with regard to Zalzal, Al-Farabi, and Safi ad-Din, it
> >would be most appreciated.
>
> I'd recommend
> The Modal System of Arab and Persian Music by O.Wright
> London Oriental Series Vol 28 Published by Oxford University Press
> in 1978.

This has been recommended to me before, but I've never picked it
up--largely because the title seems to narrow the scope of the topic
considerably. But, today, I did go out and pick it up. Fingers
crossed that it will provide some insight.
>
> In it you'll find plenty of maqamat and tetrachords notated in cents
> if I remember correctly.

Hopefully, I be able to divine the interval-ratios from these.

>
> If you're looking for lute frettings and tunings then the two
> sources that I've found useful are New Oxford History of Music Vol 1
> - Ancient and Oriental music

I've got this--should have mentioned so, earlier. While this shows
the 145 and 168 interval (called, the Persian mujannab and Zalzal's
mujannab, respectively), I still don't have a clue on how you arrive
at these two intervals.

> and The Greek Aulos by Kathleen
> Schlesinger. Methuen 1939 (regrettably out of print)

Does this cover the Islamic tunings as well?
>
> Brian Lee

Thanks for the response, regards,

Polychroni Moniodis


SMTPOriginator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
From: James Kukula
Subject: repeating patterns
PostedDate: 08-12-97 22:24:01
SendTo: CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH
ReplyTo: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
$MessageStorage: 0
$UpdatedBy: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=coul1358/OU=AT/O=EZH,CN=Manuel op de Coul/OU=AT/O=EZH
RouteServers: CN=notesrv2/OU=Server/O=EZH,CN=notesrv1/OU=Server/O=EZH
RouteTimes: 08-12-97 22:22:09-08-12-97 22:22:10,08-12-97 22:21:58-08-12-97 22:21:58
DeliveredDate: 08-12-97 22:21:58
Categories:
$Revisions:

Received: from ns.ezh.nl ([137.174.112.59]) by notesrv2.ezh.nl (Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2
9-3-1997)) with SMTP id C1256567.0075604B; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:22:03 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA09977; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:24:01 +0100
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:24:01 +0100
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA09976
Received: (qmail 2222 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1997 13:23:58 -0800
Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1)
by localhost with SMTP; 8 Dec 1997 13:23:58 -0800
Message-Id: <199712082120.NAA03772@sunatg3>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu