TUNING digest 1180

In a message dated 97-09-16 07:43:10 EDT, you write:

> I don't know if I agree with David's opinion that the more jarring and
> dramatically different a tuning is the greater chance it'll have of being
> accepted. I think that type of flash can be very catchy briefly but there
is
> nothing inherentthat would make it more acceptable in the long run. In the

> end
> I think it really comes down to whether your dealing with your musical
> vocabulary honestly and with some sort of feeling.

Well, I could be wrong. I'm certainly not basing my opinion on my own taste
but on what I'm hearing on the air waves. We (USA) went through a brief
period a couple years ago when many hits were fairly melodic. Some of the
Seattle stuff was beautiful if you could hear past the gritty guitars. But
alas! It didn't last. If you want to be artistic and tasteful, be my guest.
Some of us will listen with delight. But if you want hit records, you'd
better make a splash or you won't be noticed.



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Perhaps microtones is -- and has already been -- part and parcel of pop.
Without getting too specific at first about what _pop_ is, comtemplate the
following if you will.

Blues, heavy metal, rap, and much of music for commercials (unusual
music needed for quick sell).

Beach Boys and Pink Floyd are regularly in just intonation. Whitney
Houston and Albert King and Odetta and Louis Armstrong are regular
practitioners of microtones.

Globalization of world music brings in the microtonal musics of Bulgaria,
Egypt, India, Indonesia, et al.

The pedigree of Charles Ives for theory, intentioin, and compositions
leads to microtone useage by composers Aaron Copland, Bela Bartok, Pierre
Boulez, Gyorgy Liggeti, Krzysztof Penderecki, et al.

International pioneering by Partch, Wyschnegradsky, Haba, Fokker,
Carrillo, et al. lead to new generations of micros, that beget even more
recent generations.

Right now in New York, microtones are mainstream. Within the last 10
years there has been a lead microtonalist at each newspaper and radio
station in the city. Denver, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco,
Los Angeles, and other cities provide microtonal institutions.

And yes, there are numbers of rock bands around the country, if not the
world, many on this list. Microtonal distinction is part of what
gives that special sound to a new musician or a musical group. Time to
stopping looking into the books and smell the coffee. Microtones are here
to stay. :)

Johnny Reinhard
American Festival of Microtonal Music
318 East 70th Street, Suite 5FW
New York, New York 10021 USA
(212)517-3550/fax (212) 517-5495
reinhard@idt.net
http://www.echonyc.com/~jhhl/AFMM/



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Wellllll, this was too delicious to let go...

>Perhaps microtones is -- and has already been -- part and parcel of pop.
>Without getting too specific at first about what _pop_ is, comtemplate the
>following if you will.

Since the whole thread revolved around *pop*, it doesn't seem relevant to
avoid the issue of what pop is, but let that lie for a second. The big
point was about microtonal pop as a mainstream phenomena. Most of Johnny's
rationale *seems* to stem from microtonal inflections occurring in
otherwise 12tet musics. I say seems, since his presentation is in
generalities, not specifics. God is in the details...

>Blues, heavy metal, rap, and much of music for commercials (unusual
>music needed for quick sell).

Oh yeah? Just when did Taylor/Fender/Other start mass-producing non12tet
guitars? "much" of music for commercials?

>Beach Boys and Pink Floyd are regularly in just intonation. Whitney
>Houston and Albert King and Odetta and Louis Armstrong are regular
>practitioners of microtones.

Come on, Johnny, at least give examples! I could agree that the BB's choral
harmonies were probably altered to be more in tune -- but what about the
Farfiza/Vox/Other organs that they were playing (and gtrs, etc.)? Don't
tell me Whitney has explicitly equipped her bands with Ensoniq gear, tuned
to some slendro scale!

That a vocal line, esp. in blues, gospel, or any other roots-derived style
would carry with it microtonal nuances, melismas, figurations or ornaments:
no argument -- that's where the expressivity comes in. Likewise, though I
cracked about the gtrs, we all know they can bend pitch either with left
hand pulls or with a tremelo/whammy bar (probably called a 'Floyd Rose' or
something nowadays). But that is *on top of* a bedrock of undeniable, and
immovable, 12tet underpinnings. Thank goodness for doo-wop (I am not a
BBshop 4tet fan, though your mileage may vary...)

[is it 'tremelo' or 'tremello' or ?]

>Globalization of world music brings in the microtonal musics of Bulgaria,
>Egypt, India, Indonesia, et al.

Sure does, and I love it. Notice how much it changed Michael Bolton, Kenny
G. and Aerosmith? Not to mention the Spice Girls...

>The pedigree of Charles Ives for theory, intentioin, and compositions
>leads to microtone useage by composers Aaron Copland, Bela Bartok, Pierre
>Boulez, Gyorgy Liggeti, Krzysztof Penderecki, et al.

Well, *whatever* your definition, these boys (yep, all male) aren't pop.
That's for damn sure.

Aaron Copland, microtonalist? Wow. That's like saying "Harry Partch,
champion body-surfer"!

>International pioneering by Partch, Wyschnegradsky, Haba, Fokker,
>Carrillo, et al. lead to new generations of micros, that beget even more
>recent generations.

>Right now in New York, microtones are mainstream.

We are talking about the occurring sounds emanating from the squeals of
taxi brakes, no? (Wait, they use their horns, not their brakes...). Being
an out-of-towner, I can only keep up by reading the concert schedule in the
"New Yorker", and the occaisional Village Voice. Nope -- looks like pretty
much the old guard is still in charge. Please let us know (other than the
AFMM festival and the odd Newband concerts) what constitutes "mainstream".

>Within the last 10 years there has been a lead microtonalist at each
>newspaper and radio station in the city.

In NYC, that must be dozens of radio stations, and a large handful of
papers; all of these have successful and established microtonal
composers/performers on staff?

>Denver, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and other cities
>provide microtonal institutions.

I will speak only to the middle one: hogwash. There is no microtonal
institution here in San Diego, at least one that has *any* consequence on
the populace of the locality, much less a wider influence. If you mean the
Interval Foundation (if that is the name of Jonathan Glasier's
group/coalition), then I respectfully report that it is in name only: I
have seen just one concert, quite a few months back, there is no
'institution', and the quality of the music-making is not sufficiently
breath-taking.

Although maybe Johnny meant that John Chalmers was an institution! :)

>Time to stopping looking into the books and smell the coffee. Microtones
>are here to stay. :)

Boy, I thought the Nu Yawk coffee was stronger than that.

Look, I'm happy to see enthusiasm for any niche item, because through that
infectious verve people will be, if not converted, pleased, enlightened and
(dare I say it) entertained. Boosterism doesn't do anyone any good when it
is completely at odds with reality. Neil has the right idea: write good
(ooops, 'killer') music, play it well, record and distribute it
methodically and it will spread -- slowly. Then again, I was the one that
predicted the long curve.

But pop, both microtonal *and* widespread? Anybody here into holding their
breath??


Cheers,
Jon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jonathan M. Szanto | Corporeal Meadows: Harry Partch, online. . .
jszanto@adnc.com | http://www.adnc.com/web/jszanto/welcome.html



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Subject: Re: pop in microtones
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On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Jonathan M. Szanto wrote:

> Wellllll, this was too delicious to let go...
>
> >Perhaps microtones is -- and has already been -- part and parcel of pop.
> >Without getting too specific at first about what _pop_ is, comtemplate the
> >following if you will.
>
> Since the whole thread revolved around *pop*, it doesn't seem relevant to
> avoid the issue of what pop is, but let that lie for a second. The big
> point was about microtonal pop as a mainstream phenomena. Most of Johnny's
> rationale *seems* to stem from microtonal inflections occurring in
> otherwise 12tet musics. I say seems, since his presentation is in
> generalities, not specifics. God is in the details...

Jon has always had a rejoinder waiting around the corner for me.
Sometimes when I read his responses to my posts I begin to think I'm a
different person, but only for a moment . He is so persuasive...and
funny. I am determined to address his points and to avoid a flame at all
costs. Oh, I don't believe in God, but I do believe in details.


> >Blues, heavy metal, rap, and much of music for commercials (unusual
> >music needed for quick sell).
>
> Oh yeah? Just when did Taylor/Fender/Other start mass-producing non12tet
> guitars? "much" of music for commercials?

It has been described that jazz uses sharp sharps and flat flats, but
blues have organic microtones. Great blues artists are on record for
avoiding the piano because they would be inhibited intonationally by the
inflexible pitch of the piano (e.g. Robert Johnson).

Most of my post
involves determinations by ear, since scores and theory are unavailable
(or undesired). Rap often uses a keyboard in 1/8th tones (even En Vogue
sings in 1/8th tones in You're Never Gonna Get It.) And the guitars
get pitches/intervals in lots of ways other than
refrettings. Whammy-bars, restringings, scalloping between frets, studio
effects and manipulations are the tip of an iceberg. (Yes, I'm
optomistic.)

> >Beach Boys and Pink Floyd are regularly in just intonation. Whitney
> >Houston and Albert King and Odetta and Louis Armstrong are regular
> >practitioners of microtones.
>
> Come on, Johnny, at least give examples! I could agree that the BB's choral
> harmonies were probably altered to be more in tune -- but what about the
> Farfiza/Vox/Other organs that they were playing (and gtrs, etc.)? Don't
> tell me Whitney has explicitly equipped her bands with Ensoniq gear, tuned
> to some slendro scale!

So many exclamations above. Please don't reduce what I am saying to
farce. While one always tunes to the instrument present that is most
inflexible to pitch, singers and wind players and fretless players are
never obliged to play only those set "ghetto" pitches. Even slendro
allows for extra notes to its basic 5! The piano is a 19th century
instrument, after all.

As a bassoonist playing regularly to Pink Floyd, I normally used just
thirds in order to harmonize along. This is quite recognizeable to me
since I need to used my "special" fingerings in order to be in tune.
Miles Davis recordings likewise use microtones throughout, but usually
from a modal perspective where different fingerings are utilized.

I guess your reactions mean that you accept the microtonality of Odetta
(she does) or of Louis Armstrong (analyzed microtonally by Ezra Sims) or
Albert King (known for his emphasis of the 13th harmonic). How about the
comma in the melody of Sinead O'Connor's Compare?


> >Globalization of world music brings in the microtonal musics of Bulgaria,
> >Egypt, India, Indonesia, et al.
>
> Sure does, and I love it. Notice how much it changed Michael Bolton, Kenny
> G. and Aerosmith? Not to mention the Spice Girls...

I believe there a smile on your face, Jon when you say much of this, only
because of past exchanges. Michael Bolton sings his share of microtones.
Kenny G plays them. Maybe there's more in others yet unmentioned. The
important thing here -- at least to me -- is that there is a soup of
interval useage out there in the real world of music, and that includes
pop. (See a new article in an upcoming Whole Earth Magazine issue on
microtonal music mainstreaming of my authorship...and they called me!)

> >The pedigree of Charles Ives for theory, intentioin, and compositions
> >leads to microtone useage by composers Aaron Copland, Bela Bartok, Pierre
> >Boulez, Gyorgy Liggeti, Krzysztof Penderecki, et al.
>

Pop musicians use the history of music as a jumping off point to further
reaches and even legitimitization of techniques. The above gentleman
helped secure the use of microtones. Didn't you know that the Grateful
Dead listened to Ives #4 before each live performance during an entire
year? Or that they were financial supporters to the premiere of the Ives
Universe Symphony?


> Aaron Copland, microtonalist? Wow. That's like saying "Harry Partch,
> champion body-surfer"!

Copland used quartertones in some of his music and is thus listed in
numerous reference books. These works include Dance Symphony, Ukele
Serenade, and Vitebsk. The Copland Performance Fund has been a supporter
of the AFMM since its inception several years back, incidentally.


> >Right now in New York, microtones are mainstream.
>
> We are talking about the occurring sounds emanating from the squeals of
> taxi brakes, no? (Wait, they use their horns, not their brakes...). Being
> an out-of-towner, I can only keep up by reading the concert schedule in the
> "New Yorker", and the occaisional Village Voice. Nope -- looks like pretty
> much the old guard is still in charge. Please let us know (other than the
> AFMM festival and the odd Newband concerts) what constitutes "mainstream".

The almost pop John Cage loved the sounds you are teasing about. His
_Ten_ is in 74ET and is 30 minutes long for 10 players and it sounds like
NYC traffic. More specifically to your question: Kyle Gann is a
microtonalist critic for The Village Voice and regularly supports and
encourages tiny tone touching. John Schaefer is station manager of WNYC
the now-independent important radio station with the award winning New
Sounds show, which he hosts and sends off to NPR...and a microtonal music
enthusiast. WKCR has always had microtonal emphasis since my
involvement in 1981 and that of other key people (Frank Oteri, Charles
Passy, etc.) The New York Times regularly features positive reviews about
microtonal groups and events (I blush at the exposure) and recall the
moving on of microtonal ethusiast critic Robert Palmer. And there are
others like Roulette (run by microtonal composer David Weinstein), the
Kitchen (run by music curator and microtonalist Ben Neill), or
microtonalist Phill Niblock's series. These people have been in place way
over a decade.

> >Denver, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and other cities
> >provide microtonal institutions.
>
> I will speak only to the middle one: hogwash. There is no microtonal
> institution here in San Diego, at least one that has *any* consequence on
> the populace of the locality, much less a wider influence. If you mean the
> Interval Foundation (if that is the name of Jonathan Glasier's
> group/coalition), then I respectfully report that it is in name only: I
> have seen just one concert, quite a few months back, there is no
> 'institution', and the quality of the music-making is not sufficiently
> breath-taking.

The name Harry Partch is etched in many minds as having been an
institution of San Diego. How it is manifested since is another issue.
Interval, however, was very important for over a decade in providing
valuable information on microtonal music for over a decade. I'm sorry to
hear that things have fallen into a shabby state in San Diego.
Incidentally, Ivor Darreg was a one-man-institution if there ever was one
in San Diego and it is due to his Xenharmonicon that much of tuning theory
and early obscure writers on the subject from other lands first received
American exposure.


> >Time to stopping looking into the books and smell the coffee. Microtones
> >are here to stay. :)
>
> Boy, I thought the Nu Yawk coffee was stronger than that.
> Look, I'm happy to see enthusiasm for any niche item, because through that
> infectious verve people will be, if not converted, pleased, enlightened and
> (dare I say it) entertained. Boosterism doesn't do anyone any good when it
> is completely at odds with reality. Neil has the right idea: write good
> (ooops, 'killer') music, play it well, record and distribute it
> methodically and it will spread -- slowly. Then again, I was the one that
> predicted the long curve.

Jon, Neil's idea is my idea, and everyone in the pop world's idea. We all
write killer music and distribute the gems far and wide. Got it.

It is unneccessary, however, to ignore the music in our envirnoment right
now. I have described the NYC sound scene in more detail.
Understandably, each location will have different input. How about
everyone, what positives are there to report across the U.S. and in Europe
(Paris, Amsterdam,...)


Johnny Reinhard
reinhard@idt.net



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Johnny Reinhard writes:

> Perhaps microtones is -- and has already been -- part and parcel of pop.
> Without getting too specific at first about what _pop_ is, comtemplate the
> following if you will.
>
> Blues, heavy metal, rap, and much of music for commercials (unusual
> music needed for quick sell).
>
> Beach Boys and Pink Floyd are regularly in just intonation. Whitney
> Houston and Albert King and Odetta and Louis Armstrong are regular
> practitioners of microtones.

I'd contend that they're thinking 12-tET but their good ears pull them out of
it and into tune. For instance, David Gilmore (of Pink Floyd) certainly uses
a great deal of the pitch continuum through string bends and slide usage, but
I doubt that he intentionally or knowingly uses, say, a 5/4 instead of 400
cents. I'm a big Floyd fan and I don't remember ever hearing them use any
harmonies that could not be implied by 12-tET - with the exception of purely
intentional dissonance.

There's a southern gospel group called The Gaither Vocal Band whose four-part
harmonies on the last 2 or 3 albums have been _very_ nicely tuned - beats the
Beach Boys all to pieces; so much so that a 7th overtone can often be clearly
heard being generated by a major triad. It's really beautiful singing. But
I don't think any of the guys understands what JI is. They blend
intuitively, by ear. They're still thinking 12-tET. The same would go for
the Beach Boys.

That doesn't qualify as microtonal composition as far as I'm concerned.
12-tET roughly approximates 5- or 7-limit JI, and good musicians tend to
correct that approximation whenever their intrument and the pacing of the
music allow it, even without knowing about or understanding the mathematical
beauty they're participating in. I believe that's all there is to it.

> Microtonal distinction is part of what
> gives that special sound to a new musician or a musical group. Time to
> stopping looking into the books and smell the coffee. Microtones are here
> to stay. :)

Of that I have no doubt! Ummmm... smells good! Still, though, one can read
a book and sip coffee at the same time.



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Tunologists, all:

I am pulling long hours this week, only enough time to check the email at
night before bed, so a detailed response to Johnny R. and others will be
towards the end of the week (who cares, Jon, w h o c a r e s ? ). That
said, a couple of micromatters...

To the esteemed Dr. John Chalmers, a public apology for ignoring completely
his geographical proximity in the greater San Diego area. Even if
activities were nigh well nill, the fact remains you could always go up,
bang on his door, and talk numbers. You could, really. To the community, I
am humbled.

And the rumors that the Heaven's Gate folks built their cosmology on
differential equations that Dr. J supplied are completely false!

Also, tonight/today Carl Mumma wrote:

>I get more milage from BBshop than Mr. Szanto, and I'm
>wondering what "4tet fan" means.

He was referring to a statement of mine:

>I am not a BBshop 4tet fan, though your mileage may vary...

..which is only my obtuse shorthand for 'quartet fan' (the wife has her
own string 4tet, you know). Sorry for the confusion. BTW, are their bbshop
5tets, etc. (not mass choirs)?

Lots more later. I'll use more abbreviations and acronyms to conserve
bandwidth. Back to the sessions...

Cheers,
Jon


*------------------------------------------------------------------*
Jonathan M. Szanto | Nearly one year old, Partch's place online
Corporeal Meadows | is really showing signs of urbane sprawl...
jszanto@adnc.com | http://www.adnc.com/web/jszanto/welcome.html
*------------------------------------------------------------------*



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