Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup mills-tuning-list In search of TD 1 through TD 80

A440A@aol.com wrote:

> Let's talk about this "margin". I would challenge anybody to tune
> an equal temperament, on a fortepiano, using the known tuning
> procedures of 1800, so even that a sensitive composer could not tell
> the difference between keys.
> It is quite easy to use octaves and fifths to get all the way
> around the circle without a "wolf", however, the thirds will give it
> away as being unequal, and it is the thirds by which we judge the
> level of musical tension in a given key.

This doesn't address my point: I said that only a pattern of
inequalities which produces thirds nearer to 5/4 for the "white" keys,
and nearer to 81/64 for the "black" keys could count as evidence for an
intentional attempt to tune according to a well-tempered system. What
your are trying to do is label anything with noticeable differences a
well-temperament -- anyone can win an argument by redefining terms in
such a way.

> Walker goes on to say;
> > What you would
> >have to find is not evidence to show that ET was not achieved to
> >perfection, but rather that musicians/tuners were not _aiming_ for
> >the equality of all keys, but continued, rather, to favour some over
> >others. In other words, you will need to find contemporary evidence
> >not for inequality of results, but inequality of _intention_.
>
> This one is easy. When I was first instructed in the process of
> tuning, (1972), my tutor pointed out to me that the fifths leading up
> to the C-E third could be made a little "noisy" so that the key of C
> would be the "nicest". This was in north Louisiana!!!!! If the
> tradition of "key favoritism" was still extant 25 years ago, I
> really believe that in 1800, the practise was probably more
> widespread.

I like the anecdote, but tuning practices in Louisiana during the 1970s
will hardly serve as historical evidence for tuning practices between
1750 and 1800 in Germany and Austria. Again, I'll repeat that I have no
vested interest in the consensus view that ET had become the normal
keyboard tuning by 1800 in Germany/Austria; indeed I would receive any
documentary evidence to the contrary with enthusiasm. But I'm still
waiting ...

> Comparing the ease of production between meantone and 12TET
> seems like a stretch. Equal temperament is much more difficult.
> Meantone (1/4 comma Aaron) is so easy in comparison, that it's use
> doesn't mean that everything else followed as well, i.e. tempering
> four fifths at better than 5 cents each is a lot easier than tuning 12
> fifths at 1.95 each. The scale of difficulty doesn't translate.

Two matters concerning 16th-century tuning practices in reply to this:
Firstly, you picked the easiest meantone to tune; 1/3-comma isn't so
much harder either, but what of the 2/7 and 2/9-comma temperaments,
which had some popularity during this period? These certainly aren't
such a dawdle.
Secondly, if ET was well-nigh impossible in the 18th century, as you
argue, how come it was in popular use for lutes and viols during the
16th century? I mentioned this before, but you didn't address this. I'll
certainly grant that the differences between keyboard instruments and
fretted string instruments make it simpler for the latter, but this
hardly closes the gap on what you are arguing. I'm sure 16th-century
attempts at ET were not especially accurate, but equality was certainly
their stated intention.

> Walker again;
>
> >pronouncements Beethoven made, well into his career, upon key
> >characteristics, might seem to indicate his continuing preference for
> >and use of well-temperament (for as long as he could hear any
> >difference). My point was that he also claimed to be able to
> >distinguish between Db and C# (and other such "enharmonic
> >equivalents") and this renders his other statements on key
> >characteristics useless as a supposed Beethovenian endorsement of
> >well-temperament.
>
> Why does this render his other statements useless? Do we know what
> he was talking about inre Db vs.C#? I don't, and though it seems that
> from our point of modern view, there is no difference, was he talking
> about meantone? or was he talking about orchestral intonation, or
> singers?. But his pronouncements upon key characteristics are easily
> understood when listening to his sonati in Well temperament.

I can't believe that I haven't made this point perfectly clear by now;
perhaps you should read what I've said more carefully. Distinguishing
between the NOTES Db and C# is not the same as distinguishing between
the KEYS Db major and C# major. But I'm not going to repeat all I've
said yet again; if you haven't time to read what I've already said on
this matter, then let's drop it.

> What it comes down to when deciding performance practises is
> listening to the music, and making decisions. It is easy to say that
> composers didn't write anything down about their preferences, but is
> that true? Did they not write down the notes? Is music a language or
> not? If it is, then can it not tell us something about the composers
> intention? Extrapolation of temperament practise from composition is
> pretty thin stuff, I know, but coupled with what documentation we
> have of the state of science, (ET is a scientific tuning), and
> demonstrated differences in the sound of say, the "Pathetique"
> performed on Well temperament and Equal Temperament, I am convinced
> that it was not composed with ET in mind. I just cannot imagine
> Beethoven would have been oblivious to, or uncaring about the lack of
> tonal contrasts that follow from the use of Equal Temperament.

Musicians have convinced themselves of all sorts of things by relying on
"what the music says", or "what their ears tell them". For instance, the
performance of Renaissance polyphony without sharpened leading-notes at
cadences was the norm until a few years ago, and prominent ensembles
such as the Hilliard still sing this way. People convinced themselves
that this was the characteristic sound of Renaissance modality, that
flat leading notes were in the music, obvious to anyone who used their
ears. But it was all utter rubbish, based on a wilful disregard of all
the sources on ficta practices, and on a misguided fixation with a modal
purity that had nothing to do with compositional practices of this time.
You can still find plenty of CDs which bear witness to this nonsense.

The ground strewn with such corpses, so forgive me if I'm disinclined to
accept any far-reaching thesis purely on the grounds that the ears of
some (no doubt able) musician have convinced him of its truth. What of
the converse: would you like to say that anyone whose stomach doesn't
churn at the sound of Beethoven in ET lacks some essentials of
musicianship? Was Chopin (advocate of ET, as I've said before) less than
a true musician?

> Walker again;
> >If pianists need their confidence
> >bolstered by foundationless arguments, concerning the tunings
> >Beethoven would have heard,
>
> Foundationless arguments? The way I read and hear it, there is
> more foundation for the use of unequal tuning than there is for ET.

.. and that says it all.

Again, lest I create the wrong impression, I'll repeat that I am very
glad to know that Ed Foote is about to succeed in getting some
well-tempered Beethoven onto CD. Nothing I have said should be construed
to suggest that there is anything illegitimate in such a venture. But
categorical statements about historical events require support of a very
different order from what Ed has offered so far.

--
Jonathan Walker
Queen's University Belfast
mailto:kollos@cavehill.dnet.co.uk
http://www.music.qub.ac.uk/~walker/

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In search of TD 1 through TD 80

🔗xen@tiac.net (J. Pusey)

🔗kollos@cavehill.dnet.co.uk (Jonathan Walker)