To Charles Lucy, ghosttones

Charles Lucy wrote:

> This is in response to Matt Nathan's posting 19 Feb re.
> "ghosttones", which he calls "flageolet tones"

Actually, it was Adam B. Silverman who contributed
that definition. Are you reading the list? A number
of definitions have been contributed by myself and
others in the last 2-3 weeks. I know you saw my Backus
quote, because you responded to it, yet you asked for
definitions again.

> >Fretting positions say nothing about ghosttones. A
> >fretted string is effectively an open string with shorter
> >length. One can place frets at arbitrary positions and
> >produce equally strong sounds. Please explain the
> >sequence of ghosttones which occur in a series of fourths
> >and fifths.
>
> The reason that I listed the fretting positions is that
> these fret positions give you the positions at which you
> will find the flageolet tones. (By touching the string
> lightly above the fret, without depressing it.)
> Use the fret positions as a guide.

Are you sure that the ghosttone positions line
up exactly with the fret positions, and aren't
slightly displaced in some places?

Giving the frequencies of fretted notes doesn't
specify the frequencies of the ghosttones you
get when you touch the string directly above or
near those frets.

Please just give me a simple list of the ghosttones
in your proposed series, with their frequencies and
string positions, and don't include string positions
which have no ghosttones--they just clutter the list.

The best way to notate the string positions would
probably be as a percentage of string length, since
this can be translated to any string, and easily
compared to other models of where vibrational
nodes are found.

> >> "Ghosttones" can be found at frets close in the cycle
> >> of fourths and fifths.
> >> i.e. Through fifths E, B, F#, C#, G#, etc.
> >> Through fourths D, G, C, F, Bb, Eb etc.
>
> I am assuming that you are calling the open string A
> (i.e. guitar fifth for example).

That was your text, so you should know.

> >What are the frequencies of these ghosttones
>
> They are usually related to the pitch found at the
> corresponding fret when it is played. (as a fifth
> and an octave above) or close on the chain of fourths
> and fifths.

Saying "usually related to..." is not a sufficient
specification.

> I need to get a LucyTuned guitar and find the
> notenames and pitches for you.

How is it that you don't already know the pitches of
the ghosttone sequence for which you claim to have a
better model?

> >When you say "at fret...B" do you mean only a single
> >fret or all the frets which produce B's?
>
> I was initially referring to the fret in the first
> octave i.e. II fret on your 'A' string.

So the other frets which produce B's don't represent
ghosttone positions?

> On the spiral of fourths and fifths.
> As far as I recall (retest needed) on 'A' string.
> Loudest is at octave (midpoint of string);

Where does an octave fit into a sequence of fourths
and fifths? As you know, no number of fourths and
fifths will produce an octave (except in equal
temperaments).

> and octave above (2nd octave fret); 3/4 of distance
> nut to bridge:

Same problem; octaves never occur in a sequence of
fourths and fifths. Please explain this contradiction.

> next at first octave E fret (approx.
> 1/3 of distance nut to bridge)

Have you measured the frequencies of the open string
and this ghosttone using a tuner to see if their
interval ratio is indeed 2.988824? This would be an
obvious first test of your model.

Matt Nathan

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