Reply to Matt "ghosttones" on violin?

This is in response to Matt Nathan's posting 19 Feb re.
"ghosttones", which he calls "flageolet tones"

>Fretting positions say nothing about ghosttones. A
>fretted string is effectively an open string with shorter
>length. One can place frets at arbitrary positions and
>produce equally strong sounds. Please explain the
>sequence of ghosttones which occur in a series of fourths
>and fifths.

The reason that I listed the fretting positions is that these fret
positions give you the positions at which you will find the
flageolet tones. (By touching the string lightly above the fret,
without depressing it.)
Use the fret positions as a guide.

>> "Ghosttones" can be found at frets close in the cycle
>> of fourths and fifths.
>> i.e. Through fifths E, B, F#, C#, G#, etc.
>> Through fourths D, G, C, F, Bb, Eb etc.

I am assuming that you are calling the open string A
(i.e. guitar fifth for example).
This is the way in which I had compiled the spreadsheet for
the fretting. The note names that I used refer to positions
on this same string.
Obviously you could tune any string to any note, call the open
A, and the principle and fret positions would still be valid.
If 650 mm [usual guitar "scale" (the term usually used by UK
guitar makers)] is inconvenient for your violin or monochord;
send me the nut to bridge distance and I'll send the amended
spreadsheet output for any length you like.



>What are the frequencies of these ghosttones (rather
>than the frequencies of the fretted tones at the same
>locations (which is what your charts show))?

They are usually related to the pitch found at the corresponding
fret when it is played. (as a fifth and an octave above) or
close on the chain of fourths and fifths.

I need to get a LucyTuned guitar and find the notenames and
pitches for you. Or you could try it, test what you get and tell us.
I'll get to it this week. (We're away from home without LucyTuned
guitar, at present.)


>When you say "at fret...B" do you mean only a single
>fret or all the frets which produce B's?

I was initially referring to the fret in the first octave
i.e. II fret on your 'A' string.

>> The volume is lower the further you move away from A.

On the spiral of fourths and fifths.
As far as I recall (retest needed) on 'A' string.
Loudest is at octave (midpoint of string);
and octave above (2nd octave fret); 3/4 of distance nut to bridge:
next at first octave E fret (approx. 1/3 of distance nut to bridge)
etc. etc.
I shall give fret numbers and positions as soon as I have had a
chance to check this.


>I'm plucking my violin as I write this. I notice that
>the strongest ghosttone is the one I get when I touch
>the string near the middle. Does your sequence include
>this ghosttone?

That is the first octave (see comment above)

>Are you saying that there are no ghosttones at places
>other than these fret positions?

For clearly heard ones, yes, that seems to be the case.
except beyond the end of the fretboard. (Ocatves etc.)

>Are you sure that the volumes of the ghosttones in your
>series are in the same order as the series (in other
>words that no ghosttone is louder than one earlier
>in the series)?

Within an octave that seems to be the case.
Applying this in higher octaves, produces quieter ghosttones.
If someone has a high quality tuner, and a way to measure amplitude,
we could test this, with a "constant" pluck.
Also by tuning an adjacent string to the "expected" result, and
watching for sympathetic vibrations.
One way that I have tried this is by placing a tiny piece of paper
on the "sympathetic" string, and watching it for the "ghosttone/fret"

positions which cause the paper to jump off the string..

>Are you saying that the volume of a ghosttone some
>number of fretted-fifths along the series is as
>loud as the volume of a ghosttone the same number
>of fretted-fourths along the series (for instance
>ghosttone at fret for C# as loud as ghosttone at
>fret for F)?

I need to test for the answer to this question.
My problem with this experiment will be to measure volume,
and allow for frequency differences (hence the decision is
listener subjective at this time).
Perhaps we could arrange some sort of adjustable "mechanical finger"
to do the light touching, and test it with high quality equipment.

lucy&jk (house-sitting for 24 hours in Hilo).




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