Gary M's Email Address

I now have a new version of my (home) E-mail address. By that I mean
that my current address, 71670.2576@compuserve.com, is still valid. But if
you want to reach me at a somewhat more intuitive address than the
71670.2576 part, you can ALSO reach me as "morrisonics@compuserve.com".

"MorriSonics" is my alterego of sorts. It's a Texas-registered DBA for
if I were ever to go into private business.

But my address as its always been still works fine. So you don't need
to change any records or E-mail phonebooks, but you are welcome to if you'd
like.

Thanks!

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 22:57 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA23400; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 23:00:10 +0100
Received: from eartha.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA23404
Received: from by eartha.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
for id OAA12753; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:00:08 -0800
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:00:08 -0800
Message-Id: <32BC5D63.6953@ix.netcom.com>
Errors-To: madole@ella.mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu

It is very difficult to speak in terms of ''Indian Music'' in the singular.
On the subcontinent are two ''classical'' traditions (North Indian - or
''Hindustani'', muslim musicians to the contrary, and South Indian, or
Karnatic) with extreme variations within each that share a common Sanskrit
theoretical tradition. Certain broad musical characteristics are shared
between these traditions, but the shared characteristics between North
Indian and Persian Music or between Karnatic and Singhalese music are just
as rich and audible.

My experience with Karnatic music is more extensive than with Northern
Indian music, but I am certain that the Northern tradition enjoys a larger
pitch vocabulary, and in certain styles cultivates a large number of varied
intonations for single srutis (including SA and PA) even within a single
rag. Some composed rag sections will have certain pitches firmly defined
intonationally, others - particularly the slow, improvised Alap - will vary
radically. In any case, the intonation chosen may follow a particular style
belonging to a school of performers or a single guru. And even though the
drone will create a prominent harmonic background for a performer, often
part of the performance dynamic is to deviate audibly from the drone
pitches or their harmonics.

One great difficulty in dealing with subcontinental musics - not unfamiliar
elsewhere - is that the performers, even noted artists, are very uneven in
their intonational skills. A certain Kirana vocalist favored by many in the
tuning community, could be extraordinarily precise in his performances, but
was frequently completely off, and would often deliver a beautifully
intoned alap only to follow up with a composition that was extremely rough.

In Karnatic music, the tuning is rather more stable throughout the
tradition (although 12tet has made inroads in recent years, particularly
with the advent of mandolin and guitar performers, as well as the
introduction of electronic keyboards) and limited to a set of 12 named
pitches, which may vary by a comma much as Rousseau has described,
particularly in the ragas where MA moves to a sharp fourth degree (contrary
to a lot of literature, this pitch is fixed around 45/32, not the 11/8 that
many claim to be hearing). The precise intonation of a Raga varies with the
particular tradition, guru, and with the particular composition, but the
value attached to tuning is high: as T. Viswanathan put it to me: Sing in
tune or go to hell!.

It has long been surprising that an electronic microtonal keyboard has not
been commercially produced in India or Pakistan. It seems like a product
that would have a great domestic demand as well as a potential for
profitable export to niche markets abroad (like American microtonalists!).
Maybe some list members have concrete ideas. Perhaps a 12 (Pyth)+10 (comma
varied) keyboard with a variable fundamental frequency would be sufficient.

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 06:16 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA31668; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 06:18:47 +0100
Received: from eartha.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA31665
Received: from by eartha.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
for id VAA20196; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:18:44 -0800
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:18:44 -0800
Message-Id:
Errors-To: madole@ella.mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu

In my previous suggested bibliography of Indian classical music, I should
have made clear that most of the sources I suggested dealt with Hindustani,
or North Indian classical music. Karnatic, or South Indian music is a
separate tradition, though some of the theory and terminology overlaps.

The Wade book, while it concentrates on Hindustani music, does include some
Karnatic theory as well, and the Groves article includes information on
both. The others I suggested are pretty much entirely Hindustani, which is
the best known tradition.

I have some references for Karnatic music as well, though I've never come
across any that were particularly concise or readable like the Sorrell or
Wade. If anyone has some suggestions, I would be interested to know those
as well.

Bill

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)621-8360 (fax) ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:20 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA13892; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:19:58 +0100
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA13886
Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
id OAA28176; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:18:00 -0800
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:18:00 -0800
Message-Id: <199703241715_MC2-1336-201A@compuserve.com>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu

Another source is

Rowell, Lewis. Music and Musical Thought in Early India. Univ. of Chicago
Press. 1992.

This book won the American Musicological Society's Kinkeldy award a few
years ago.

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:36 +0100
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA14087; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:36:05 +0100
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA12916
Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
id QAA10668; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:34:13 -0800
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:34:13 -0800
Message-Id: <1352911106-52266620@laws.atc.fhda.edu>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu

My office keeping skills are minimal, so I'll have to paraphrase this
next phrase rather than quote it. It's from a book called "Sonic Design,"
and I'm afraid I don't know the author. When referring to Indian tunings,
they demonstrated with a 27 note to the octave scale, rather than the
usual 22 srutis I am used to seeing. Then, they pointed out that each
note was more of an "area", rather than a "fixed pitch"...the performer
was at liberty to use several different "notes" to express the mood of
the raga he/she was playing. This makes perfect sense to me...notation is
a tricky affair at times, and in many cases, such as bending a note,
there is absolutely NO way to tell a person where to put that note, since
it is a matter of feeling and expression...and, this, of course, is where
real music differs from theory.
I've been playing blues for 30 years, and it is impossible to tell
someone where to play a pitch when they bend; you have to DO it; yet, I
know when it's wrong, and so do my students. Again, it's a feeling. I
truly believe that only the practitioners of a style of music are
qualified to be authorities on what makes it tick. That's why there is so
much speculation on Indian tunings by westerners, but little
authoritative knowledge...many western theorists do not actually play
Indian music, so they're approaching it as outsiders. To me, the concept
of no final "pitch" for a note is a lot like so called "quantum" theory,
where only probabilities are certain, and our own participation in
looking for an electron can affect where it turns up. Again, all
improvised music is like this, to some extent. Even though flamenco, for
example, is in 12 eq, no one can tell you what to play next on your
instrument, so notation is only showing you what happened at that
particular time; next time, you'll play something else. Each style is a
language, deep and unique. To live it is to speak it truthfully.
Again, I would love to see more great music in our field. There's an
awful lot of great 12 eq musicians out there, and I am hoping that the
folks who actually play instruments in other tunings will develop their
playing and composing skills to the highest possible level. Most people
in the world just look at you funny when you say "microtonal," so I
believe our work is just beginning. Yet, with powerful, profound music to
back up our theories, I am convinced we can help people hear that we are
on to something valid, and worthwhile. That's why microdoodling bugs me
so much; I'd much rather hear someone play their ass off in 12 eq than to
poot around in a rudimentary way on an instrument, trying to convince me
that "just" (pure) tunings are "superior" because they are better in
tune. As the level of musicianship rises in other tuning systems, things
will improve. Until then, a lot of folks think that microtonal music is
just a bunch of bleeps and bloops, made by guys at big universities with
white coats...Hstick

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Tue, 6 May 1997 13:46 +0200
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA05866; Tue, 6 May 1997 13:46:38 +0200
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA05800
Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
id EAA26388; Tue, 6 May 1997 04:44:36 -0700
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:44:36 -0700
Message-Id: <970506074218_1289508024@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu

"Sonic Design" mentioned by Neil is by Pozzi and Escot or maybe Escot a
Pozzi- great book- not sure if its still in print.

Allen Strange

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Tue, 6 May 1997 21:19 +0200
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA06142; Tue, 6 May 1997 21:19:31 +0200
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA06138
Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
id MAA29194; Tue, 6 May 1997 12:16:04 -0700
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:16:04 -0700
Message-Id: <199705061445_MC2-160C-ABD1@compuserve.com>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu

On Tue, 6 May 1997 08:58:47 -0700 Allen said:
>"Sonic Design" mentioned by Neil is by Pozzi and Escot or maybe Escot a
>Pozzi- great book- not sure if its still in print.
>
Clarification: _Sonic Design: The Nature of Sound and Music_, by
Robert Cogan and Pozzi Escot. It *IS* an incredible book, and sadly is
out of print (at least the last time I checked). It is a crucial
resource, and should remain in print. Pozzi Escot is a mathematician /
composer of Indian descent, and so she adds a careful mathematical as well
as artistic musical discussion of Indian music systems.
-- Brian Belet

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Wed, 7 May 1997 03:41 +0200
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA06459; Wed, 7 May 1997 03:41:19 +0200
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA06416
Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
id SAA02971; Tue, 6 May 1997 18:39:29 -0700
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:39:29 -0700
Message-Id: <199705061736_MC2-1610-57DE@compuserve.com>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu

Aline Surman wrote:

>My office keeping skills are minimal, so I'll have to paraphrase this
>next phrase rather than quote it. It's from a book called "Sonic Design,"
>and I'm afraid I don't know the author. When referring to Indian tunings,
>they demonstrated with a 27 note to the octave scale, rather than the
>usual 22 srutis I am used to seeing. Then, they pointed out that each
>note was more of an "area", rather than a "fixed pitch"...the performer
>was at liberty to use several different "notes" to express the mood of
>the raga he/she was playing. This makes perfect sense to me...notation is
>a tricky affair at times, and in many cases, such as bending a note,
>there is absolutely NO way to tell a person where to put that note, since
>it is a matter of feeling and expression...and, this, of course, is where
>real music differs from theory.

I know nothing about Indian music and so may quite wrong.

However, I think that saying that each note is "a bit of an area" rather
than a fixed pitch may be a little misleading. Rather, I think it is a
set of locations in an area. They are very definite and not just
random. My source for this information is an excellent little book,
"An Introduction to the Study of Indian Music" by E Clements (1912).
There is a diagram at http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/in_music.gif
which shows the relationships between the notes in indian music with the
ratios of 2, 3, 5 and 7 shown. The frequencies and names are according
to Clements and the layout according to an idea I got from elsewhere.

Some notes like ma have 7 different frequencies (although 2 are old
values), namely 315, 337, 320, 341+1/3, 324, (333+1/3, 316+4/81)
and are the flat7, natural, flat\, t and flat respectively.
[Hey I can't do those notations in ascii :-]

> I've been playing blues for 30 years, and it is impossible to tell
>someone where to play a pitch when they bend; you have to DO it; yet, I
>know when it's wrong, and so do my students. Again, it's a feeling. I
>truly believe that only the practitioners of a style of music are
>qualified to be authorities on what makes it tick.

I acknowledge that practitioners do know what to do. However I suspect
that you automatically go to the correct one of the above depending on
the context.

-- Ray Tomes -- rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz -- Harmonics Theory --
http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Wed, 7 May 1997 06:00 +0200
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA06529; Wed, 7 May 1997 06:00:28 +0200
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA06482
Received: from by ella.mills.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/930416.SGI)
id UAA12600; Tue, 6 May 1997 20:58:48 -0700
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:58:48 -0700
Message-Id: <337ff489.16285078@kcbbs.gen.nz>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@ella.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@ella.mills.edu

I think my first try at this vanished with the lost messages...

Aline Surman wrote:

>My office keeping skills are minimal, so I'll have to paraphrase this
>next phrase rather than quote it. It's from a book called "Sonic Design,"
>and I'm afraid I don't know the author. When referring to Indian tunings,
>they demonstrated with a 27 note to the octave scale, rather than the
>usual 22 srutis I am used to seeing. Then, they pointed out that each
>note was more of an "area", rather than a "fixed pitch"...the performer
>was at liberty to use several different "notes" to express the mood of
>the raga he/she was playing. This makes perfect sense to me...notation is
>a tricky affair at times, and in many cases, such as bending a note,
>there is absolutely NO way to tell a person where to put that note, since
>it is a matter of feeling and expression...and, this, of course, is where
>real music differs from theory.

I know nothing about Indian music and so may quite wrong.

However, I think that saying that each note is "a bit of an area" rather
than a fixed pitch may be a little misleading. Rather, I think it is a
set of locations in an area. They are very definite and not just
random. My source for this information is an excellent little book,
"An Introduction to the Study of Indian Music" by E Clements (1912).
There is a diagram at http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/in_music.gif
which shows the relationships between the notes in indian music with the
ratios of 2, 3, 5 and 7 shown. The frequencies and names are according
to Clements and the layout according to an idea I got from elsewhere.

Some notes like ma have 7 different frequencies (although 2 are old
values), namely 315, 337, 320, 341+1/3, 324, (333+1/3, 316+4/81)
and are the flat7, natural, flat\, t and flat respectively.
[Hey I can't do those notations in ascii :-]

> I've been playing blues for 30 years, and it is impossible to tell
>someone where to play a pitch when they bend; you have to DO it; yet, I
>know when it's wrong, and so do my students. Again, it's a feeling. I
>truly believe that only the practitioners of a style of music are
>qualified to be authorities on what makes it tick.

I acknowledge that practitioners do know what to do. However I suspect
that you automatically go to the correct one of the above depending on
the context.

-- Ray Tomes -- rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz -- Harmonics Theory --
http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm

Received: from ns.ezh.nl [137.174.112.59] by vbv40.ezh.nl
with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Sat, 10 May 1997 12:43 +0200
Received: by ns.ezh.nl; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA08535; Sat, 10 May 1997 12:43:49 +0200
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:43:49 +0200
Received: from ella.mills.edu by ns (smtpxd); id XA08543
Received: (qmail 9201 invoked from network); 10 May 1997 10:43:42 -0000
Received: from localhost (HELO ella.mills.edu) (127.0.0.1)
by localhost with SMTP; 10 May 1997 10:43:42 -0000
Message-Id: <33b2500e.301901156@kcbbs.gen.nz>
Errors-To: madole@mills.edu
Reply-To: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Originator: tuning@eartha.mills.edu
Sender: tuning@eartha.mills.edu