Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II

Any unrepentant criminal making his/her livelihood by hurting the property and lives of his/her victims deserves his/her hand cut off. Islamic justice, by the grace of Allah Ta'ala, proposes the most humane, the most deterrent punishment possible to ease the pain of wronged muslims or disbelievers thusly victimized. While it is evident that imprisonment of such criminals only serves to increase their crime, some `modern people` nonchalantly agree to locking them away so that their `sensitive eyes` won't have to bear the burden of civil responsibility.

Islam forbids torture by imprisonment. Rehabilitation of criminals requires Qisas, or Just Recompense. Coquettish foppishness as practiced by some so-called moderate `muslims` have no bearing to the high virtues of Islam delineated by our God.

----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 17:13
Subject: Re: [metatuning] The Pentagon's New Map

On Tuesday 01 November 2005 9:26 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Fox News Fib Alert: Bubblegum sales are forbidden in Tehran.

Even better at illustrating my point....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Humane \Hu*mane"\, a. [L. humanus: cf. F. humain. See Human.]
1. Pertaining to man; human. [Obs.] --Jer. Taylor.
[1913 Webster]

2. Having the feelings and inclinations creditable to man;
having a disposition to treat other human beings or
animals with kindness; kind; benevolent.
[1913 Webster]

Of an exceeding courteous and humane inclination.
--Sportswood.
[1913 Webster]

....cutting someone's hand off is not 'humane' according to the above
definition.

-Aaron.

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 9:57 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Any unrepentant criminal making his/her livelihood by hurting the property
> and lives of his/her victims deserves his/her hand cut off. Islamic
> justice, by the grace of Allah Ta'ala, proposes the most humane, the most
> deterrent punishment possible to ease the pain of wronged muslims or
> disbelievers thusly victimized. While it is evident that imprisonment of
> such criminals only serves to increase their crime, some `modern people`
> nonchalantly agree to locking them away so that their `sensitive eyes`
> won't have to bear the burden of civil responsibility.
>
> Islam forbids torture by imprisonment. Rehabilitation of criminals requires
> Qisas, or Just Recompense. Coquettish foppishness as practiced by some
> so-called moderate `muslims` have no bearing to the high virtues of Islam
> delineated by our God.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 02 Kasým 2005 Çarþamba 17:13
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] The Pentagon's New Map
>
> On Tuesday 01 November 2005 9:26 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> > Fox News Fib Alert: Bubblegum sales are forbidden in Tehran.
>
> Even better at illustrating my point....
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 9:57 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Any unrepentant criminal making his/her livelihood by hurting the property
> and lives of his/her victims deserves his/her hand cut off.

I'm sorry, to respond to cruelty with cruel barbarism does not enlighten
anyone, but keep them in the dark ages.

If this is 'High Islam', 'Low Islam' is certainly superior.

> Islamic
> justice, by the grace of Allah Ta'ala, proposes the most humane, the most
> deterrent punishment possible to ease the pain of wronged muslims or
> disbelievers thusly victimized.

So what about 'disbeliever' Daniel Pearl? Would you avenge his head being cut
off by your fellow Muslims?

> Islam forbids torture by imprisonment. Rehabilitation of criminals requires
> Qisas, or Just Recompense.

'Just' to whom?

> Coquettish foppishness as practiced by some
> so-called moderate `muslims` have no bearing to the high virtues of Islam
> delineated by our God.

For a humble muslim, you certainly presume to speak for your god alot.

Well if we go back to Plato, who started all this trouble, he said that punishment never makes the unjust act more just.

i agree that prisons makes criminals worse.
my objection to such harsh treatment, it does not allow for mistakes on the part of those doing the judging.

One of the biggest obstacles to the anarchists, is the treatment of criminals, as no satisfactory proposal has emerged

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>On Wednesday 02 November 2005 9:57 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> >
>>Any unrepentant criminal making his/her livelihood by hurting the property
>>and lives of his/her victims deserves his/her hand cut off.
>> >>
>
>I'm sorry, to respond to cruelty with cruel barbarism does not enlighten >anyone, but keep them in the dark ages.
>
>If this is 'High Islam', 'Low Islam' is certainly superior.
>
> >
>>Islamic >>justice, by the grace of Allah Ta'ala, proposes the most humane, the most
>>deterrent punishment possible to ease the pain of wronged muslims or
>>disbelievers thusly victimized.
>> >>
>
>So what about 'disbeliever' Daniel Pearl? Would you avenge his head being cut >off by your fellow Muslims?
>
> >
>>Islam forbids torture by imprisonment. Rehabilitation of criminals requires
>>Qisas, or Just Recompense.
>> >>
>
>'Just' to whom?
>
> >
>>Coquettish foppishness as practiced by some >>so-called moderate `muslims` have no bearing to the high virtues of Islam
>>delineated by our God.
>> >>
>
>For a humble muslim, you certainly presume to speak for your god alot.
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Easing the pain of suffering victims who yearn for justice is.
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 19:10
Subject: [metatuning] humane?

Humane \Hu*mane"\, a. [L. humanus: cf. F. humain. See Human.]
1. Pertaining to man; human. [Obs.] --Jer. Taylor.
[1913 Webster]

2. Having the feelings and inclinations creditable to man;
having a disposition to treat other human beings or
animals with kindness; kind; benevolent.
[1913 Webster]

Of an exceeding courteous and humane inclination.
--Sportswood.
[1913 Webster]

....cutting someone's hand off is not 'humane' according to the above
definition.

-Aaron.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Control your arrogance Aaron, I do not wish to be forced to leave this place again. I kindly ask you to be civil and restrain your condescending remarks about my faith and norms just as I refrain from assaulting your faithlessness. If you want to learn what goes on inside my head as a modest believer in Allah Ta'ala, first agree to listen with patience and tolerance, and remember that I shall refuse to be drawn into any polemics by your taunts.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 19:04
Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 9:57 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Any unrepentant criminal making his/her livelihood by hurting the property
> and lives of his/her victims deserves his/her hand cut off.

I'm sorry, to respond to cruelty with cruel barbarism does not enlighten
anyone, but keep them in the dark ages.

If this is 'High Islam', 'Low Islam' is certainly superior.

> Islamic
> justice, by the grace of Allah Ta'ala, proposes the most humane, the most
> deterrent punishment possible to ease the pain of wronged muslims or
> disbelievers thusly victimized.

So what about 'disbeliever' Daniel Pearl? Would you avenge his head being cut
off by your fellow Muslims?

> Islam forbids torture by imprisonment. Rehabilitation of criminals requires
> Qisas, or Just Recompense.

'Just' to whom?

> Coquettish foppishness as practiced by some
> so-called moderate `muslims` have no bearing to the high virtues of Islam
> delineated by our God.

For a humble muslim, you certainly presume to speak for your god alot.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 1:59 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Easing the pain of suffering victims who yearn for justice is.

I agree, although revenge seldom (if ever) gives relief. If you've lost
someone to a violent crime, killing the killer doesn't bring back the victim,
or fill the hole in your heart.

Plus, governments which practice brutality are capable of the greatest evils.

Regarding the prison system in the U.S., I do think that it's not harsh enough
in some respects. It is a fact that some criminals network in prison, and
prefer 'life on the inside' with their gangs, etc. to being a free citizen.

The whole thing is a mess. Part of the problem is the huge number of people
arrested for minor crimes like marijuana possession. This bloats the prison
resources and size beyond where it could realistically manage. Those people
don't belong in there; the serial killers and rapists do.

BTW, I am for the death penalty, but only in severe cases like serial killing.

-Aaron.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 02 Kasým 2005 Çarþamba 19:10
> Subject: [metatuning] humane?
>
>
>
> Humane \Hu*mane"\, a. [L. humanus: cf. F. humain. See Human.]
> 1. Pertaining to man; human. [Obs.] --Jer. Taylor.
> [1913 Webster]
>
> 2. Having the feelings and inclinations creditable to man;
> having a disposition to treat other human beings or
> animals with kindness; kind; benevolent.
> [1913 Webster]
>
> Of an exceeding courteous and humane inclination.
> --Sportswood.
> [1913 Webster]
>
>
> ....cutting someone's hand off is not 'humane' according to the above
> definition.
>
> -Aaron.
>

oh i would call this revenge more than justice.
but De Sade pointed out that revenge is a truly human emotion, where as punishment enacted by the state is without any human passion at all.
For this reason, he refused to sentence anyone to the guillotine in the french revolution, much to the dismay of the revolutionaries , who when they made him a judge, expected him to be the most merciless of their lot.
They could only put him in an asylum considering him insane.

possibly the most ' humane' thing is to give the criminal to the victims.
but de sade point is that there is nothing more inhumane than humans.

isn't this for god to deal with then, not us.
why would he need (in)human intervention

Ozan Yarman wrote:

>Easing the pain of suffering victims who yearn for justice is.
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aaron Krister Johnson > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 19:10 > Subject: [metatuning] humane?
>
>
>
> Humane \Hu*mane"\, a. [L. humanus: cf. F. humain. See Human.]
> 1. Pertaining to man; human. [Obs.] --Jer. Taylor.
> [1913 Webster]
>
> 2. Having the feelings and inclinations creditable to man;
> having a disposition to treat other human beings or
> animals with kindness; kind; benevolent.
> [1913 Webster]
>
> Of an exceeding courteous and humane inclination.
> --Sportswood.
> [1913 Webster]
>
>
> ....cutting someone's hand off is not 'humane' according to the above > definition.
>
> -Aaron.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 2:27 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Control your arrogance Aaron, I do not wish to be forced to leave this
> place again. I kindly ask you to be civil and restrain your condescending
> remarks about my faith and norms just as I refrain from assaulting your
> faithlessness. If you want to learn what goes on inside my head as a modest
> believer in Allah Ta'ala, first agree to listen with patience and
> tolerance, and remember that I shall refuse to be drawn into any polemics
> by your taunts.

In all honesty, my questions below were not designed to be taunting. I
sincerely wanted to know what you thought of various bits in the current (and
recent) news. The beheadings in Iraq for example.

Other than that, I do honestly wonder how you presume to speak for you diety
on matters which with some of your fellow muslims are in sharp disagreement
with you about...

Further, sorry, but I find barbaric attitudes barbaric (cutting off people's
hands as punishment for theft), and I won't apologize for that in the name of
any belief.

-Aaron.

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 02 Kasým 2005 Çarþamba 19:04
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
>
> On Wednesday 02 November 2005 9:57 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> > Any unrepentant criminal making his/her livelihood by hurting the
> > property and lives of his/her victims deserves his/her hand cut off.
>
> I'm sorry, to respond to cruelty with cruel barbarism does not enlighten
> anyone, but keep them in the dark ages.
>
> If this is 'High Islam', 'Low Islam' is certainly superior.
>
> > Islamic
> > justice, by the grace of Allah Ta'ala, proposes the most humane, the
> > most deterrent punishment possible to ease the pain of wronged muslims
> > or disbelievers thusly victimized.
>
> So what about 'disbeliever' Daniel Pearl? Would you avenge his head being
> cut off by your fellow Muslims?
>
> > Islam forbids torture by imprisonment. Rehabilitation of criminals
> > requires Qisas, or Just Recompense.
>
> 'Just' to whom?
>
> > Coquettish foppishness as practiced by some
> > so-called moderate `muslims` have no bearing to the high virtues of
> > Islam delineated by our God.
>
> For a humble muslim, you certainly presume to speak for your god alot.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

You approve the death penalty for the crime of coldblooded murder and not the chopping of larcenous hands? One more step in that direction and you will become the greatest advocate of Islamic Shariah anyone this side of the world has ever seen.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 22:27
Subject: Re: [metatuning] humane?

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 1:59 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Easing the pain of suffering victims who yearn for justice is.

I agree, although revenge seldom (if ever) gives relief. If you've lost
someone to a violent crime, killing the killer doesn't bring back the victim,
or fill the hole in your heart.

Plus, governments which practice brutality are capable of the greatest evils.

Regarding the prison system in the U.S., I do think that it's not harsh enough
in some respects. It is a fact that some criminals network in prison, and
prefer 'life on the inside' with their gangs, etc. to being a free citizen.

The whole thing is a mess. Part of the problem is the huge number of people
arrested for minor crimes like marijuana possession. This bloats the prison
resources and size beyond where it could realistically manage. Those people
don't belong in there; the serial killers and rapists do.

BTW, I am for the death penalty, but only in severe cases like serial killing.

-Aaron.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Most certainly, Allah Ta'ala does not require human intervention for divine punishment. The muslim ummah avenges the victims by supreme authority of Islam, i. e., the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of the blessed Prophet (s.a.w.), which is a blessing from our Lord to ease our hearts and our suffering. Inshallah, I do not err.

Newsflash: Justice is retribution.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 23:44
Subject: Re: [metatuning] humane?

oh i would call this revenge more than justice.
but De Sade pointed out that revenge is a truly human emotion, where as
punishment enacted by the state is without any human passion at all.
For this reason, he refused to sentence anyone to the guillotine in the
french revolution, much to the dismay of the revolutionaries , who when
they made him a judge, expected him to be the most merciless of their lot.
They could only put him in an asylum considering him insane.

possibly the most ' humane' thing is to give the criminal to the victims.
but de sade point is that there is nothing more inhumane than humans.

isn't this for god to deal with then, not us.
why would he need (in)human intervention

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are you calling the revelation of the Holy Quran barbaric? Are you openly insulting my faith and the faith of millions of muslims? If you do so intentionally, such a blatant display of insolence requires an apology by any moral standard imaginable. For someone who knows so little of Islam, you may do well to improve yourself in manners, humility and tolerance when confronting a culture you do not fully comprehend Aaron. Truly, your vain remarks are unnerving for us muslims. And remember that I say this as a believer who, in the sight of my Lord, is probably no better than a phylacterical tartuffian as compared to many pious and God-fearing souls.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 22:56
Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 2:27 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Control your arrogance Aaron, I do not wish to be forced to leave this
> place again. I kindly ask you to be civil and restrain your condescending
> remarks about my faith and norms just as I refrain from assaulting your
> faithlessness. If you want to learn what goes on inside my head as a modest
> believer in Allah Ta'ala, first agree to listen with patience and
> tolerance, and remember that I shall refuse to be drawn into any polemics
> by your taunts.

In all honesty, my questions below were not designed to be taunting. I
sincerely wanted to know what you thought of various bits in the current (and
recent) news. The beheadings in Iraq for example.

Other than that, I do honestly wonder how you presume to speak for you diety
on matters which with some of your fellow muslims are in sharp disagreement
with you about...

Further, sorry, but I find barbaric attitudes barbaric (cutting off people's
hands as punishment for theft), and I won't apologize for that in the name of
any belief.

-Aaron.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
>
> One of the biggest obstacles to the anarchists, is the treatment of
> criminals, as no satisfactory proposal has emerged
>
Hi Kraig,

Are you aware of any examples of eg Kropotkinesque theories of crime
and its possible remedies being tried?

All I know is that most "anarchists" got a lot "training" and writing
done in jail, themselves.

P

no i don't know about this, but am quite interested, since it is a stumbling block for me in this direction.
Most anarchist do seem to realize their ideas work better in micro than macro situations.
Do you have a good reference or book to pursue on this?

ambassadorbob wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
>>One of the biggest obstacles to the anarchists, is the treatment of >>criminals, as no satisfactory proposal has emerged
>>
>> >>
>Hi Kraig,
>
>Are you aware of any examples of eg Kropotkinesque theories of crime >and its possible remedies being tried?
>
>All I know is that most "anarchists" got a lot "training" and writing >done in jail, themselves.
>
>P
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> no i don't know about this, but am quite interested, since it is a
> stumbling block for me in this direction.
> Most anarchist do seem to realize their ideas work better in
micro than
> macro situations.
> Do you have a good reference or book to pursue on this?

Kraig!

It's all pretty vague and hopelessly optimistic, as far as I know.
There might have been some communal or educational experiments where
discipline had to be enforced, but I haven't got to that stuff, yet.

And the original books seem to be rare as hen's teeth. But I could
easily be wrong about that. I have a couple of compilations from
the library.

_The Essential Kropotkin_, ed. by Emile Capouya and Keitha Tompkins

Dig this one though!

_Bakunin: From out of the Dustbin_, tr. & ed. by Robert M. Cutler

The Kropotkin is great fun, I haven't really sussed Bakunin yet,
except very basic history. Extremely interesting! But he was the
king syndicalist and "destroyer", so...??? Still, they're sparky as
heck on the page.

And Kropotkin's decidedly altruistic.

If you can get to or through Murray Bookchin and Helmut Wiesenthal
and Green Party/Die Grune lit, you might find some good stuff
quicker than I will. But none of it's very recent, that I've found.

Saludos,

Pedrito

The anarchist web pages are bit pretentious or overwhelming to me,
but can be very worthwhile, as long as you don't need a lot of
citations and footnotes and s***. Or where to buy the actual
volumes they were printed in. Hee! Too much fun.

>
> ambassadorbob wrote:
>
> >--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >>One of the biggest obstacles to the anarchists, is the treatment
of
> >>criminals, as no satisfactory proposal has emerged
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Hi Kraig,
> >
> >Are you aware of any examples of eg Kropotkinesque theories of
crime
> >and its possible remedies being tried?
> >
> >All I know is that most "anarchists" got a lot "training" and
writing
> >done in jail, themselves.
> >
> >P
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> >To post to the list, send to
> >metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 4:28 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Are you calling the revelation of the Holy Quran barbaric?

It depends upon what chapter and verse you are talking about. No different
than in the Old Testament or New Testatment of the Bible.

The Judeo-Christian tradition no longer accepts as fasionable passages like
that in Deuteronomy, where an unmarried woman who has had sex should be
publicly stoned to death. And I think that the world has made progress in a
moral sense as a result. Don't you agree?

And no, I don't believe that any troubling moral message (like women are worth
half a man) should be called 'holy'. Since all 'holy books' were written by
men, they reflect the moral capacity of men at that point in their culture
and time.

> Are you openly
> insulting my faith and the faith of millions of muslims?

No. just stating the barbarism is barbaric. And that cutting people's hands
off is barbaric. Perhaps you should read only what I wrote, and not what you
think I wrote.

> If you do so
> intentionally, such a blatant display of insolence requires an apology by
> any moral standard imaginable. For someone who knows so little of Islam,
> you may do well to improve yourself in manners, humility and tolerance when
> confronting a culture you do not fully comprehend Aaron.

I'm still waiting for your views on the beheadings of innocents in Iraq. In
all humility and tolerance. I cannot 'tolerate' or 'not tolerate' what I
don't know your views to really be, since you haven't really revealed them.

> Truly, your vain
> remarks are unnerving for us muslims.

Truly, your apparant silence on some 'easy' moral questions is unnerving.

> And remember that I say this as a
> believer who, in the sight of my Lord, is probably no better than a
> phylacterical tartuffian as compared to many pious and God-fearing souls.

In Buddhism, enlightenment, and the elimination of suffering, are the goals,
not fear, and attitude I very much respect.

-Aaron.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 02 Kasým 2005 Çarþamba 22:56
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
>
> On Wednesday 02 November 2005 2:27 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> > Control your arrogance Aaron, I do not wish to be forced to leave this
> > place again. I kindly ask you to be civil and restrain your
> > condescending remarks about my faith and norms just as I refrain from
> > assaulting your faithlessness. If you want to learn what goes on inside
> > my head as a modest believer in Allah Ta'ala, first agree to listen
> > with patience and tolerance, and remember that I shall refuse to be
> > drawn into any polemics by your taunts.
>
> In all honesty, my questions below were not designed to be taunting. I
> sincerely wanted to know what you thought of various bits in the current
> (and recent) news. The beheadings in Iraq for example.
>
> Other than that, I do honestly wonder how you presume to speak for you
> diety on matters which with some of your fellow muslims are in sharp
> disagreement with you about...
>
> Further, sorry, but I find barbaric attitudes barbaric (cutting off
> people's hands as punishment for theft), and I won't apologize for that in
> the name of any belief.
>
> -Aaron.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

It is safe to conclude at this point that you are not ripe to receive the wisdom. I choose unnerving silence. Hush.

----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Krister Johnson
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 03 Kas�m 2005 Per�embe 18:17
Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 4:28 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Are you calling the revelation of the Holy Quran barbaric?

It depends upon what chapter and verse you are talking about. No different
than in the Old Testament or New Testatment of the Bible.

The Judeo-Christian tradition no longer accepts as fasionable passages like
that in Deuteronomy, where an unmarried woman who has had sex should be
publicly stoned to death. And I think that the world has made progress in a
moral sense as a result. Don't you agree?

And no, I don't believe that any troubling moral message (like women are worth
half a man) should be called 'holy'. Since all 'holy books' were written by
men, they reflect the moral capacity of men at that point in their culture
and time.

> Are you openly
> insulting my faith and the faith of millions of muslims?

No. just stating the barbarism is barbaric. And that cutting people's hands
off is barbaric. Perhaps you should read only what I wrote, and not what you
think I wrote.

> If you do so
> intentionally, such a blatant display of insolence requires an apology by
> any moral standard imaginable. For someone who knows so little of Islam,
> you may do well to improve yourself in manners, humility and tolerance when
> confronting a culture you do not fully comprehend Aaron.

I'm still waiting for your views on the beheadings of innocents in Iraq. In
all humility and tolerance. I cannot 'tolerate' or 'not tolerate' what I
don't know your views to really be, since you haven't really revealed them.

> Truly, your vain
> remarks are unnerving for us muslims.

Truly, your apparant silence on some 'easy' moral questions is unnerving.

> And remember that I say this as a
> believer who, in the sight of my Lord, is probably no better than a
> phylacterical tartuffian as compared to many pious and God-fearing souls.

In Buddhism, enlightenment, and the elimination of suffering, are the goals,
not fear, and attitude I very much respect.

-Aaron.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A well written post, Aaron, which of course Ozan will not answer except by
spouting further irrelevant theistic rhetoric. It is becomming clear that he
has no views of his own, and unless he can put his finger on some koranic
quote, he simply cannot answer any simple questions such as you pose. What
it must be like to be so empty, just the kind of person religious zealots
love to find to fill with their brainwashing.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Aaron Krister Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:18 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
>
>
>On Wednesday 02 November 2005 4:28 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>> Are you calling the revelation of the Holy Quran barbaric?
>
>It depends upon what chapter and verse you are talking about. No different
>than in the Old Testament or New Testatment of the Bible.
>
>The Judeo-Christian tradition no longer accepts as fasionable
>passages like
>that in Deuteronomy, where an unmarried woman who has had sex should be
>publicly stoned to death. And I think that the world has made
>progress in a
>moral sense as a result. Don't you agree?
>
>And no, I don't believe that any troubling moral message (like
>women are worth
>half a man) should be called 'holy'. Since all 'holy books' were
>written by
>men, they reflect the moral capacity of men at that point in their culture
>and time.
>
>> Are you openly
>> insulting my faith and the faith of millions of muslims?
>
>No. just stating the barbarism is barbaric. And that cutting
>people's hands
>off is barbaric. Perhaps you should read only what I wrote, and
>not what you
>think I wrote.
>
>> If you do so
>> intentionally, such a blatant display of insolence requires an apology by
>> any moral standard imaginable. For someone who knows so little of Islam,
>> you may do well to improve yourself in manners, humility and
>tolerance when
>> confronting a culture you do not fully comprehend Aaron.
>
>I'm still waiting for your views on the beheadings of innocents in
>Iraq. In
>all humility and tolerance. I cannot 'tolerate' or 'not tolerate' what I
>don't know your views to really be, since you haven't really revealed them.
>
>> Truly, your vain
>> remarks are unnerving for us muslims.
>
>Truly, your apparant silence on some 'easy' moral questions is unnerving.
>
>> And remember that I say this as a
>> believer who, in the sight of my Lord, is probably no better than a
>> phylacterical tartuffian as compared to many pious and God-fearing souls.
>
>In Buddhism, enlightenment, and the elimination of suffering, are
>the goals,
>not fear, and attitude I very much respect.
>
>-Aaron.
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
>> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 22:56
>> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
>>
>> On Wednesday 02 November 2005 2:27 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>> > Control your arrogance Aaron, I do not wish to be forced to
>leave this
>> > place again. I kindly ask you to be civil and restrain your
>> > condescending remarks about my faith and norms just as I refrain from
>> > assaulting your faithlessness. If you want to learn what
>goes on inside
>> > my head as a modest believer in Allah Ta'ala, first agree to listen
>> > with patience and tolerance, and remember that I shall refuse to be
>> > drawn into any polemics by your taunts.
>>
>> In all honesty, my questions below were not designed to be taunting. I
>> sincerely wanted to know what you thought of various bits in
>the current
>> (and recent) news. The beheadings in Iraq for example.
>>
>> Other than that, I do honestly wonder how you presume to speak for you
>> diety on matters which with some of your fellow muslims are in sharp
>> disagreement with you about...
>>
>> Further, sorry, but I find barbaric attitudes barbaric (cutting off
>> people's hands as punishment for theft), and I won't apologize
>for that in
>> the name of any belief.
>>
>> -Aaron.
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>> To post to the list, send to
>> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Thursday 03 November 2005 11:09 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> It is safe to conclude at this point that you are not ripe to receive the
> wisdom. I choose unnerving silence. Hush.

Your refusal to answer my question regarding the Iraq beheading is noted for
the 3rd time.

-Aaron

On Thursday 03 November 2005 11:29 am, Dante Rosati wrote:
> A well written post, Aaron, which of course Ozan will not answer except by
> spouting further irrelevant theistic rhetoric.

As we have already seen...indeed.

> It is becomming clear that
> he has no views of his own, and unless he can put his finger on some
> koranic quote, he simply cannot answer any simple questions such as you
> pose.

He's not even quoting the Koran....he seems to be spouting his own personal
convicitions, like a prophet.

Of course, if he did quote the Koran, he might have to admit to the utter
brutality contained in various passages.

> What it must be like to be so empty, just the kind of person
> religious zealots love to find to fill with their brainwashing.

Unfortunatly, most people just accept what was given to them at birth,
religion wise, or what was beaten into them, or repeated over and over and
over.

Schopenhauer has a great quote:

"There is no absurdity so palpable but that it may be firmly planted in the
human head if you only begin to inculcate it before the age of five, by
constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. For the training of
men, as of animals, can be completed successfully only in early youth."

-Aaron.

> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
> >Behalf Of Aaron Krister Johnson
> >Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:18 AM
> >To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
> >
> >On Wednesday 02 November 2005 4:28 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> >> Are you calling the revelation of the Holy Quran barbaric?
> >
> >It depends upon what chapter and verse you are talking about. No different
> >than in the Old Testament or New Testatment of the Bible.
> >
> >The Judeo-Christian tradition no longer accepts as fasionable
> >passages like
> >that in Deuteronomy, where an unmarried woman who has had sex should be
> >publicly stoned to death. And I think that the world has made
> >progress in a
> >moral sense as a result. Don't you agree?
> >
> >And no, I don't believe that any troubling moral message (like
> >women are worth
> >half a man) should be called 'holy'. Since all 'holy books' were
> >written by
> >men, they reflect the moral capacity of men at that point in their culture
> >and time.
> >
> >> Are you openly
> >> insulting my faith and the faith of millions of muslims?
> >
> >No. just stating the barbarism is barbaric. And that cutting
> >people's hands
> >off is barbaric. Perhaps you should read only what I wrote, and
> >not what you
> >think I wrote.
> >
> >> If you do so
> >> intentionally, such a blatant display of insolence requires an apology
> >> by any moral standard imaginable. For someone who knows so little of
> >> Islam, you may do well to improve yourself in manners, humility and
> >
> >tolerance when
> >
> >> confronting a culture you do not fully comprehend Aaron.
> >
> >I'm still waiting for your views on the beheadings of innocents in
> >Iraq. In
> >all humility and tolerance. I cannot 'tolerate' or 'not tolerate' what I
> >don't know your views to really be, since you haven't really revealed
> > them.
> >
> >> Truly, your vain
> >> remarks are unnerving for us muslims.
> >
> >Truly, your apparant silence on some 'easy' moral questions is unnerving.
> >
> >> And remember that I say this as a
> >> believer who, in the sight of my Lord, is probably no better than a
> >> phylacterical tartuffian as compared to many pious and God-fearing
> >> souls.
> >
> >In Buddhism, enlightenment, and the elimination of suffering, are
> >the goals,
> >not fear, and attitude I very much respect.
> >
> >-Aaron.
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
> >> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: 02 Kasým 2005 Çarþamba 22:56
> >> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
> >>
> >> On Wednesday 02 November 2005 2:27 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> >> > Control your arrogance Aaron, I do not wish to be forced to
> >
> >leave this
> >
> >> > place again. I kindly ask you to be civil and restrain your
> >> > condescending remarks about my faith and norms just as I refrain
> >> > from assaulting your faithlessness. If you want to learn what
> >
> >goes on inside
> >
> >> > my head as a modest believer in Allah Ta'ala, first agree to listen
> >> > with patience and tolerance, and remember that I shall refuse to be
> >> > drawn into any polemics by your taunts.
> >>
> >> In all honesty, my questions below were not designed to be taunting. I
> >> sincerely wanted to know what you thought of various bits in
> >
> >the current
> >
> >> (and recent) news. The beheadings in Iraq for example.
> >>
> >> Other than that, I do honestly wonder how you presume to speak for you
> >> diety on matters which with some of your fellow muslims are in sharp
> >> disagreement with you about...
> >>
> >> Further, sorry, but I find barbaric attitudes barbaric (cutting off
> >> people's hands as punishment for theft), and I won't apologize
> >
> >for that in
> >
> >> the name of any belief.
> >>
> >> -Aaron.
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >>
> >> To post to the list, send to
> >> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >> You don't have to be a member to post.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> >To post to the list, send to
> >metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Yes the parrot at the gates of heaven

Dante Rosati wrote:

>A well written post, Aaron, which of course Ozan will not answer except by
>spouting further irrelevant theistic rhetoric. It is becomming clear that he
>has no views of his own, and unless he can put his finger on some koranic
>quote, he simply cannot answer any simple questions such as you pose. What
>it must be like to be so empty, just the kind of person religious zealots
>love to find to fill with their brainwashing.
>
> >
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>>Behalf Of Aaron Krister Johnson
>>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:18 AM
>>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
>>
>>
>>On Wednesday 02 November 2005 4:28 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>> >>
>>>Are you calling the revelation of the Holy Quran barbaric?
>>> >>>
>>It depends upon what chapter and verse you are talking about. No different
>>than in the Old Testament or New Testatment of the Bible.
>>
>>The Judeo-Christian tradition no longer accepts as fasionable
>>passages like
>>that in Deuteronomy, where an unmarried woman who has had sex should be
>>publicly stoned to death. And I think that the world has made
>>progress in a
>>moral sense as a result. Don't you agree?
>>
>>And no, I don't believe that any troubling moral message (like
>>women are worth
>>half a man) should be called 'holy'. Since all 'holy books' were
>>written by
>>men, they reflect the moral capacity of men at that point in their culture
>>and time.
>>
>> >>
>>>Are you openly
>>>insulting my faith and the faith of millions of muslims?
>>> >>>
>>No. just stating the barbarism is barbaric. And that cutting
>>people's hands
>>off is barbaric. Perhaps you should read only what I wrote, and
>>not what you
>>think I wrote.
>>
>> >>
>>>If you do so
>>>intentionally, such a blatant display of insolence requires an apology by
>>>any moral standard imaginable. For someone who knows so little of Islam,
>>>you may do well to improve yourself in manners, humility and
>>> >>>
>>tolerance when
>> >>
>>>confronting a culture you do not fully comprehend Aaron.
>>> >>>
>>I'm still waiting for your views on the beheadings of innocents in
>>Iraq. In
>>all humility and tolerance. I cannot 'tolerate' or 'not tolerate' what I
>>don't know your views to really be, since you haven't really revealed them.
>>
>> >>
>>>Truly, your vain
>>>remarks are unnerving for us muslims.
>>> >>>
>>Truly, your apparant silence on some 'easy' moral questions is unnerving.
>>
>> >>
>>>And remember that I say this as a
>>>believer who, in the sight of my Lord, is probably no better than a
>>>phylacterical tartuffian as compared to many pious and God-fearing souls.
>>> >>>
>>In Buddhism, enlightenment, and the elimination of suffering, are
>>the goals,
>>not fear, and attitude I very much respect.
>>
>>-Aaron.
>>
>>
>> >>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 22:56
>>> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Explanation of Islamic Orthodoxy Part II
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 02 November 2005 2:27 pm, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>>> > Control your arrogance Aaron, I do not wish to be forced to
>>> >>>
>>leave this
>> >>
>>> > place again. I kindly ask you to be civil and restrain your
>>> > condescending remarks about my faith and norms just as I refrain from
>>> > assaulting your faithlessness. If you want to learn what
>>> >>>
>>goes on inside
>> >>
>>> > my head as a modest believer in Allah Ta'ala, first agree to listen
>>> > with patience and tolerance, and remember that I shall refuse to be
>>> > drawn into any polemics by your taunts.
>>>
>>> In all honesty, my questions below were not designed to be taunting. I
>>> sincerely wanted to know what you thought of various bits in
>>> >>>
>>the current
>> >>
>>>(and recent) news. The beheadings in Iraq for example.
>>>
>>> Other than that, I do honestly wonder how you presume to speak for you
>>>diety on matters which with some of your fellow muslims are in sharp
>>>disagreement with you about...
>>>
>>> Further, sorry, but I find barbaric attitudes barbaric (cutting off
>>>people's hands as punishment for theft), and I won't apologize
>>> >>>
>>for that in
>> >>
>>>the name of any belief.
>>>
>>> -Aaron.
>>>
>>>
>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>>
>>>To post to the list, send to
>>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>
>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>>To post to the list, send to
>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles