more on Afghan war

First, I apologize...I don't know how to isolate individual quotes
and respond to them...so, I'll just sort of improvise. Johnny Reinhard
said I was responding to Taliban propaganda, by mentioning that American
troops may not be able to cut it in Afghanistan...actually, I felt that
way long before I read what the Taliban said. I have been following
their mistreatment of women for years, and have often thought about what
it would be like to go in there, and take them on. So, no, what the
Taliban says or doesn't say means little to me. Believe me, I have no
problem with the courage or bravery of Americans...that's not the issue.
But, again, it's one thing to train for a war, and, I believe quite
another to try and engage an enemy such as the Afghans on their own
turf. They have been fighting continuously for years, they are used to
the horrid conditions in their country, and they are fighting on their
homeland. When I mentioned that they were fighting for their land, and
way of life, Johnny said we were, too. Yes, true enough...and, in WW2,
Americans were fighting on enemy land, and we did, indeed, win. I don't
think, logistically, this war is going to be quite the same as WW2...I
could be wrong, but it seems like this scenario is going to involve more
overall guerilla style fighting, in conditions that may well favor the
indigenous fighters, to a large degree, who know the country intimately.
I've read that the Afghan fighters dress quite lightly, even in the
worst conditions, and are not dismayed by the devastating weather.( as I
sit in my pleasant living room in Colorado, talking about fighting in
Afghanistan, it does seem a bit ironic...) God only knows...it's going
to be quite nasty, however it plays out.
As far as the bravery and toughness factor, let's face it...we are a
country that rarely even puts anyone to death, no matter how terrible
their crimes. We say "civilized" nations don't have a death penalty
(that's another topic for discussion); OK, but with that mindset, it may
be difficult to gear up to deal with the savagery of a bunch of folks
who, as has been mentioned, skin prisoners alive. Their approach to life
and death seems to be quite removed from the American way of life. Do
our fighting men have that kind of savagery inside? If so, can they
bring it to the fore, and use it? Because it looks like they may well
have to. If they don't, there may be serious problems. Overall, I don't
like the thought of what's coming, and I fully realize that my opinions
are pretty teensy in the overall scheme of things. I am grateful that we
have a forum for discussion here, I can learn a lot by testing my
opinions and ideas with the rest of you.
On Abdul Haq...I read the last metatuning post which quoted him, and
I must say, he made a lot of sense. After his death, there was an
article in the Denver Post, and a friend of Haq's (an American), said
that the USA "hung him out to dry." Also, unidentified Pakistani
intelligence sources were mentioned, who said that Haq was not getting
any response from the Americans, and tried to take matters into his own
hands. Sounds like he would have been a very valuable man to have on our
side. Of course, it does make me wonder what sort of long range strategy
the US has about this region, how much control we are going to try and
assert, and how willing we are to let the Afghans decide their own
course. It sounds real messy, and unfortunately, it doesn't appear like
there any really neat, clean endings in the near future.
Onr more thing...for myself, I am not afraid because of the current
climate, and the things that may happen. Deeply concerned, yes,
especially for all the little ones in the world, who are now going to
grow up under very tense and dangerous conditions, but not afraid. I am
not a bit surprised by the way things are going, and have, in fact, been
sort of waiting for, as they say, the shit to hit the fan...seems it
has. I see the current situation as a spiritual matter, overall...it's
interesting how just 4 men, in history (Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha,
Krishna) have had such a huge effect on so many people, over a time span
of thousands of years. That being said, I truly believe that the only
way out of this mess, is to have spiritual leaders appear, now, who can
reach people on a large scale, with the teaching that this intolerance,
killing, and domination of each other, is wrong to the core. We can blow
the shit out of each other till kingdom come, but the root causes go
right back to the teachings of just a few people, and how they have been
(and still are) interpreted, and put into action. And, I do believe it's
possible that these leaders will, indeed, appear...in fact, I'm counting
on it, because I have not a shred of faith that the current governments
of the world will do the correct thing. They haven't so far, and it
doesn't look like they will any time soon...hope we keep this discussion
going, and lively (and honorable)...with gratitude...Hstick

[Neil wrote:]
>One more thing...for myself, I am not afraid because of the current
>climate, and the things that may happen. Deeply concerned, yes,
>especially for all the little ones in the world, who are now going to
>grow up under very tense and dangerous conditions, but not afraid. I am
>not a bit surprised by the way things are going, and have, in fact,
>been sort of waiting for, as they say, the shit to hit the fan...seems
>it has. I see the current situation as a spiritual matter, overall...
>it's interesting how just 4 men, in history (Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha,
>Krishna) have had such a huge effect on so many people, over a time
>span of thousands of years. That being said, I truly believe that the
>only way out of this mess, is to have spiritual leaders appear, now,
>who can reach people on a large scale, with the teaching that this
>intolerance, killing, and domination of each other, is wrong to the
>core. We can blow the shit out of each other till kingdom come, but the
>root causes go right back to the teachings of just a few people, and
>how they have been (and still are) interpreted, and put into action.
>And, I do believe it's possible that these leaders will, indeed,
>appear...in fact, I'm counting on it, because I have not a shred of
>faith that the current governments of the world will do the correct
>thing. They haven't so far, and it doesn't look like they will any time
>soon...hope we keep this discussion going, and lively (and
>honorable)...with gratitude...Hstick

I share your deep skepticism about the current governments of the world.
As someone has observed, only people who don't want jobs in political
leadership should have them; instead, of course, we get people like
Clinton and Bush who lust for power and whose motives are suspect at
best, even when we're not at war. Add war to the picture, and their
motives may get even more twisted, if that's possible.

Perhaps it would be helpful for a new spiritual leader to appear in the
world, but while we're waiting, all of us can try to spread the wisdom
of those who have already come and gone. Jesus, for example, was very
clear in his teaching, yet many horrible things have been done and
continue to be done by people who claim to be his followers. If there
_is_ an afterlife, and Jesus is up in heaven watching us here on earth,
I have to believe he's very unhappy with what he sees. Forget about
"Jesus wept". How about "Jesus sobbed uncontrollably"?

At the risk of offending those who think that Jesus was/is a
particularly divine individual, compared to the rest of humans (and
certainly I mean no offense), I think it may be more helpful, and in my
view more correct, to think of Jesus as a human guy who happened to
figure out some important truths, and who did his best to share what he
had figured out.

What he's trying to tell us, and what all the truly inspired religious
men and women are trying to tell us, is that this path is available to
all of us. Joseph Campbell, whom I've mentioned before, really opened
my eyes to the meaning of religion: where it had seemed a total sham to
me before, he showed a kernel of wisdom. And Campbell himself had such
a glow about him, that inner light of peace. I understand he could get
plenty feisty in discussions, though!

Campbell counsels that a vital person vitalizes everyone he/she touches.
Each one of us can strive to be a tiny slice of an overall whole new
religious leader for the world, does that make sense?

JdL

In a message dated 11/5/01 7:51:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, jdl@...
writes:

> Each one of us can strive to be a tiny slice of an overall whole new
> religious leader for the world, does that make sense?
>
> JdL
>
>

Maybe Neil is right that there will be a new spiritual leader coming out of
this (which I doubt because of the power of the media to dash someone), or
John is right (though it is doubtful that people could improve at an uneven
rate). Of course, there is doubt being expressed about almost everything
that is now going on.

Maybe we have indeed reached a critical peak in the world (as with Abraham
Maslow), but the results are quite different. I am listening to P.J.
O'Rourke on CNN saying the "world is evil and this is the normal life." I
don't believe that. I used to believe evil didn't exist, until fairly
recently. The bludgeoning of everyone to using "evil-doer" as Bush does is
like a Copt Egyptian Christian saying In'shallah because that's what the
majority do.

I like John's idea a bit more than a "re-"hunkering down with standard
religion. But why not consider that people on this planet come to realize
that this is our life and we have to make the paradise here, instead of
waiting for the after-death? If people knew what to do with their time to
seek the beauty as John does, they might not need to pray so often a day. We
could work together to make beautiful things happen. We don't need an
invisible sentient being, let alone a middleman. We need each other.
Whether this happens after-war, it is evident there is more agreement now
among the armed forces of this world than I can ever remember existing
before. Americans won't be alone in this. Back to FDR, "The only thing we
have to fear is fear itself."

Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow! Thanks for a very nice post.

JdL

[I wrote:]
>>Each one of us can strive to be a tiny slice of an overall whole new
>>religious leader for the world, does that make sense?

[Johnny:]
>Maybe Neil is right that there will be a new spiritual leader coming
>out of this (which I doubt because of the power of the media to dash
>someone), or John is right (though it is doubtful that people could
>improve at an uneven rate). Of course, there is doubt being expressed
>about almost everything that is now going on.

>Maybe we have indeed reached a critical peak in the world (as with
>Abraham Maslow), but the results are quite different. I am listening
>to P.J. O'Rourke on CNN saying the "world is evil and this is the
>normal life." I don't believe that. I used to believe evil didn't
>exist, until fairly recently. The bludgeoning of everyone to using
>"evil-doer" as Bush does is like a Copt Egyptian Christian saying
>In'shallah because that's what the majority do.

>I like John's idea a bit more than a "re-"hunkering down with standard
>religion. But why not consider that people on this planet come to
>realize that this is our life and we have to make the paradise here,
>instead of waiting for the after-death? If people knew what to do with
>their time to seek the beauty as John does, they might not need to pray
>so often a day. We could work together to make beautiful things
>happen. We don't need an invisible sentient being, let alone a
>middleman. We need each other. Whether this happens after-war, it is
>evident there is more agreement now among the armed forces of this
>world than I can ever remember existing before. Americans won't be
>alone in this. Back to FDR, "The only thing we have to fear is fear
>itself."

>Johnny Reinhard