another metatuning meltdown

well at least we are all still talking despite our differences.
i do not see any way to resolve problems with someone who will not communicate.
i can only imagine this is pretty much how this whole thing is unfortunately playing out on a larger scale.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> well at least we are all still talking despite our differences.
> i do not see any way to resolve problems with someone who will
> not communicate.
> i can only imagine this is pretty much how this whole thing is
> unfortunately playing out on a larger scale.

I find the viral nature of the God-of-Abraham religions
interesting. Many interpretatons of Christianity involve
a requirement to proselytize. And apparently Islam
requires its followers to avoid discussing matters of
faith with anyone who might convince them otherwise. As
I think Richard Dawkins says, most people subscribe to the
religion of their parents. This is made explicit in
Judaism. Yet all three of these religions have some degree
or other of 'you're screwed unless you're with us' action.
But the notion of being screwed simply because you were
born in a part of the world where your parents were likely
to believe something different doesn't jive with the
supposed fairness of the supposed God.

Nevertheless, as we've seen on this list, you don't have
to believe in the God of Abraham to believe stupid things.
I'm personally not inclined to favor crystal-waving pinheads
over bible-waving ones. And fundamentalist agnosticism
(atheism) is equally tiresome.

There must be something better to talk about.

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:

>There must be something better to talk about.
>
I. Scooter Libby? Karl Rove? The Enviroment? Family Guy?

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

> >There must be something better to talk about.
> >
> I. Scooter Libby? Karl Rove? The Enviroment? Family Guy?

All of the above, and certainly the last one.

-Carl

On Monday 31 October 2005 2:22 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > well at least we are all still talking despite our differences.
> > i do not see any way to resolve problems with someone who will
> > not communicate.
> > i can only imagine this is pretty much how this whole thing is
> > unfortunately playing out on a larger scale.
>
> I find the viral nature of the God-of-Abraham religions
> interesting. Many interpretatons of Christianity involve
> a requirement to proselytize. And apparently Islam
> requires its followers to avoid discussing matters of
> faith with anyone who might convince them otherwise. As
> I think Richard Dawkins says, most people subscribe to the
> religion of their parents. This is made explicit in
> Judaism. Yet all three of these religions have some degree
> or other of 'you're screwed unless you're with us' action.
> But the notion of being screwed simply because you were
> born in a part of the world where your parents were likely
> to believe something different doesn't jive with the
> supposed fairness of the supposed God.
>
> Nevertheless, as we've seen on this list, you don't have
> to believe in the God of Abraham to believe stupid things.
> I'm personally not inclined to favor crystal-waving pinheads
> over bible-waving ones. And fundamentalist agnosticism
> (atheism) is equally tiresome.

I consider the viral nature as you described above a neccessary ingredient for
'fundamentalism'.

My 'atheism' or as I prefer to call it 'meta-theism' is not something I care
to propogate in the same virus-like way. I only care to be left alone to not
believe what I want.

I certainly don't find any sort of non-theism tiresome, but rather,
refreshing, in this age of anti-reason and extreme religious violence. I
think we've erred on the side of giving every religious kook every imaginable
forum for preaching kookiness, at the expense of moderation, reason, and
non-believers everywhere. At least in the U.S., where a whopping 55% of
people deny evolution ever occured.

BTW, an atheist can only be rightly called a fundamentalist if they are
certain 'God' doesn't exist (so-called 'hard atheism'), which, for several
reasons I explained elsewhere, does not fit my description. As I also
explained, I'm not really an atheist at all.

Perhaps you are just sick of talking about religious belief at all, which I
can understand. Maybe you should just choose not to participate, or start
another thread?

> There must be something better to talk about.

Care to start a thread about it?

-Aaron.

> I certainly don't find any sort of non-theism tiresome, but
> rather, refreshing, in this age of anti-reason and extreme
> religious violence.

I think these are currently near historical all-time lows.

> BTW, an atheist can only be rightly called a fundamentalist if
> they are certain 'God' doesn't exist (so-called 'hard atheism'),
> which, for several reasons I explained elsewhere, does not fit
> my description.

I didn't mention you at all!

-Carl

On Monday 31 October 2005 2:29 pm, David Beardsley wrote:
> Carl Lumma wrote:
> >There must be something better to talk about.
>
> I. Scooter Libby? Karl Rove? The Enviroment? Family Guy?

regarding 'Scooter'--I'm delighted to see the proverbial chickens coming back
to roost at the White House.

The universe just might be moral, after all.

-Aaron.

The worst a crystal-waving pinhead may do is try and convince you to fork
over money for a treatment. A Koran or bible waving pinhead may actually
want to kill you. BIG difference, in my opinion. And its not a matter of
believing stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing well or wishing
violence towards your fellow humans.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 3:23 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: another metatuning meltdown
>
>
>> well at least we are all still talking despite our differences.
>> i do not see any way to resolve problems with someone who will
>> not communicate.
>> i can only imagine this is pretty much how this whole thing is
>> unfortunately playing out on a larger scale.
>
>I find the viral nature of the God-of-Abraham religions
>interesting. Many interpretatons of Christianity involve
>a requirement to proselytize. And apparently Islam
>requires its followers to avoid discussing matters of
>faith with anyone who might convince them otherwise. As
>I think Richard Dawkins says, most people subscribe to the
>religion of their parents. This is made explicit in
>Judaism. Yet all three of these religions have some degree
>or other of 'you're screwed unless you're with us' action.
>But the notion of being screwed simply because you were
>born in a part of the world where your parents were likely
>to believe something different doesn't jive with the
>supposed fairness of the supposed God.
>
>Nevertheless, as we've seen on this list, you don't have
>to believe in the God of Abraham to believe stupid things.
>I'm personally not inclined to favor crystal-waving pinheads
>over bible-waving ones. And fundamentalist agnosticism
>(atheism) is equally tiresome.
>
>There must be something better to talk about.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>>There must be something better to talk about.
>>>
>>> >>>
>>I. Scooter Libby? Karl Rove? The Enviroment? Family Guy?
>> >>
>
>All of the above, and certainly the last one.
>

thumbs up!

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

On Monday 31 October 2005 3:21 pm, Dante Rosati wrote:
> The worst a crystal-waving pinhead may do is try and convince you to fork
> over money for a treatment. A Koran or bible waving pinhead may actually
> want to kill you. BIG difference, in my opinion. And its not a matter of
> believing stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing well or wishing
> violence towards your fellow humans.

Well said.

-Aaron.

> I consider the viral nature as you described above a neccessary
> ingredient for 'fundamentalism'.

The atheists I was thinking of when I wrote that were the ones
at a booth called 'East Bay Atheists' or some such, at a local
fair. And similar folks I've met over the years, who took a
keen interest in convincing others that there was no God.

-C.

> The worst a crystal-waving pinhead may do is try and convince
> you to fork over money for a treatment. A Koran or bible waving
> pinhead may actually want to kill you. BIG difference, in my
> opinion. And its not a matter of believing stupid things or not,
> its a matter of wishing well or wishing violence towards your
> fellow humans.

There's a point. (Though, aren't there some environmental
groups that believe human lives can justifiably be exchanged
for tree lives and such?)

-Carl

Why think of atheists as a group? I prefer to speak of my religion as
"Johnnyism" which is non-evangelical and private.

J

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>
> The worst a crystal-waving pinhead may do is try and
> convince you to fork over money for a treatment. A Koran
> or bible waving pinhead may actually want to kill you.
> BIG difference, in my opinion. And its not a matter of
> believing stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing
> well or wishing violence towards your fellow humans.

That's the best point i've seen made in this discussion so far.

-monz

We kill only those aggressors who attempt to take our lives in their hatred and persecute the poor believers. And we do not kill them anymore after they are subjugated by us, nor do we force upon them our belief. They are to pay the jizya (tribute) though, as a recompense for all the evils they and their progeny inflicted upon us.

Monz, if you believed for a moment that we `Koran-waving pinheads` are bloodthirsty barbarians, you are more naive than I thought. Shame.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: monz
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 13:28
Subject: [metatuning] Re: another metatuning meltdown

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>
> The worst a crystal-waving pinhead may do is try and
> convince you to fork over money for a treatment. A Koran
> or bible waving pinhead may actually want to kill you.
> BIG difference, in my opinion. And its not a matter of
> believing stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing
> well or wishing violence towards your fellow humans.

That's the best point i've seen made in this discussion so far.

-monz

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wednesday 02 November 2005 6:15 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> We kill only those aggressors who attempt to take our lives in their hatred
> and persecute the poor believers.

If you are talking about terrorists, this is simply untrue. The targeting of
innocent civilians is the goal of Al-Queda and Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah.

Daniel Pearl was an innocent Jewish civilian journalist when his head was cut
off.

I dare you say here publicly that that brutal act was justified.

> And we do not kill them anymore after
> they are subjugated by us, nor do we force upon them our belief.

And what of the poor believers of Islam killed by the Taliban? Women who
talked out of turn, or were seen outside at the wrong time publically?
How is that not enforced belief?

Do you too, think that women count as 1/3 a person?

> They are
> to pay the jizya (tribute) though, as a recompense for all the evils they
> and their progeny inflicted upon us.
>
> Monz, if you believed for a moment that we `Koran-waving pinheads` are
> bloodthirsty barbarians, you are more naive than I thought. Shame.

It remains to be seen how blood-thirsty any of you are, until you reveal your
true opinions about any high-profile news event related to terrorism. I've
sensed quite a bit of mildly tempered 'sword rhetoric/terrorism is justified'
from you.

Tell us what you think about:
9/11
Israel's right to exist in the Middle East
the political justification of killing innocents
Jews
Bin Laden
Atheists
Homosexuals
The true role of Women

It is telling that it took several years for American muslims as a whole to
issue a 'fatwa' against the perpetrators of 9/11 and terror as a whole. What
took so long, since Islam is a 'peaceful religion'?

Any religion or practice that so freely talks of 'killing' loses my repect....

Buddhism is the philosophy or tradition (not really a theist religion) that
has values closest to mine: non-violence and respect for life in all its
forms.

Ozan, it still appears that your best arguments for why 'Allah is glorious'
boil down to 'because he can crush you in an instant' or some variation of
that. It makes what is divine boil down to the same aesthetics as a
pro-wrestling match, where "My God can beat up your God". And might, IMO,
doesn't make right.

-Aaron.

Hi Aaron,

You know, I think the Taliban should not be equated with Turkish Islam. They
are certainly an aberration to other Islamic units, notably the Turks. But
we shall certainly ask Ozan to speak for himself, if not his nation. Bin Laden
had nasty words to say about the Turks in one of his famous videos.

A lot of this discussion makes me understand better this "originalist" view
of the Constitution that the Bushies are looking for in Supreme Court judges.
Being literal to any book is a huge mistake "in my book."

Also, infidel and "infidelity" now make sense together.

I think Al Queda basically found loopholes in the literalness of the Koran to
exploit while other Muslims react as if dumbfounded.

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Ozan,

I am not at all naive.

Yes, i do believe that "Koran-waving pinheads" may be
bloodthirty barbarians, as are so many other people in
the world, whatever group they may place themselves into
as members.

By writing "we 'Koran-waving pinheads'", you are including
yourself in a group which by your argument seems not to
include you. Do you consider yourself to be a pinhead?

First of all, Dante's use of the word "pinhead" implies
that he is speaking about a particular subset of Bible-
and Koran-waving people. If you don't consider yourself
to be a pinhead, then neither he nor are were referring
to you or others like you, or groups to which you feel
you belong.

Secondly, Dante wrote "A Koran or bible waving pinhead
may actually want to kill you". Note that he used the word
"may", and not "will", which leaves open the possibility
that there may even be Bible- or Koran-waving pinheads
who do *not* want to kill.

The statement Dante made which i thought was really good
was actually the last part: "its not a matter of believing
stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing well or
wishing violence towards your fellow humans".

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>
> We kill only those aggressors who attempt to take our lives
> in their hatred and persecute the poor believers. And we do
> not kill them anymore after they are subjugated by us, nor
> do we force upon them our belief. They are to pay the jizya
> (tribute) though, as a recompense for all the evils they and
> their progeny inflicted upon us.
>
> Monz, if you believed for a moment that we `Koran-waving
> pinheads` are bloodthirsty barbarians, you are more naive
> than I thought. Shame.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: monz
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 02 Kasým 2005 Çarþamba 13:28
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: another metatuning meltdown
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> >
> > The worst a crystal-waving pinhead may do is try and
> > convince you to fork over money for a treatment. A Koran
> > or bible waving pinhead may actually want to kill you.
> > BIG difference, in my opinion. And its not a matter of
> > believing stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing
> > well or wishing violence towards your fellow humans.
>
>
> That's the best point i've seen made in this discussion so far.
>
>
>
> -monz

Even without saying "pinhead", describing someone as "bible waving" or
"koran waving" means (to me) someone who basically cannot (or will not)
think for themselves and instead looks to a centuries or millenia old book
(written, not by "god", but by humans with agendas) to tell them how to
think and act. In a way, to add "pinhead" is redundant. In addition, people
with this kind of mentality usually cannot abide others who either fetishize
a different book from their own, or even worse, do not fetishize any book at
all (infidels!). Historically, people with this mentality have not been
above torturing and killing those who do not share their particular fetish.
This is fact, not opinion. Noone expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Nota bene: the bible and koran are wonderful & fascinating books, well worth
reading, as are thousands of other books. The problem comes from "waving"
them, that is, fetishizing them. I have no wish to "demonize" either book,
which is no better than fetishizing them. The problem is in the actions of
violent and intolerant people, not in books. Although if a book claims that
non believers will burn in hell, one can question its morality and its
effect on the minds of the weak.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of monz
>Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 3:52 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: another metatuning meltdown
>
>
>Dear Ozan,
>
>I am not at all naive.
>
>Yes, i do believe that "Koran-waving pinheads" may be
>bloodthirty barbarians, as are so many other people in
>the world, whatever group they may place themselves into
>as members.
>
>By writing "we 'Koran-waving pinheads'", you are including
>yourself in a group which by your argument seems not to
>include you. Do you consider yourself to be a pinhead?
>
>First of all, Dante's use of the word "pinhead" implies
>that he is speaking about a particular subset of Bible-
>and Koran-waving people. If you don't consider yourself
>to be a pinhead, then neither he nor are were referring
>to you or others like you, or groups to which you feel
>you belong.
>
>Secondly, Dante wrote "A Koran or bible waving pinhead
>may actually want to kill you". Note that he used the word
>"may", and not "will", which leaves open the possibility
>that there may even be Bible- or Koran-waving pinheads
>who do *not* want to kill.
>
>The statement Dante made which i thought was really good
>was actually the last part: "its not a matter of believing
>stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing well or
>wishing violence towards your fellow humans".
>
>
>-monz
>
>
>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
>>
>> We kill only those aggressors who attempt to take our lives
>> in their hatred and persecute the poor believers. And we do
>> not kill them anymore after they are subjugated by us, nor
>> do we force upon them our belief. They are to pay the jizya
>> (tribute) though, as a recompense for all the evils they and
>> their progeny inflicted upon us.
>>
>> Monz, if you believed for a moment that we `Koran-waving
>> pinheads` are bloodthirsty barbarians, you are more naive
>> than I thought. Shame.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Ozan
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: monz
>> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: 02 Kas�m 2005 �ar�amba 13:28
>> Subject: [metatuning] Re: another metatuning meltdown
>>
>>
>> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>> >
>> > The worst a crystal-waving pinhead may do is try and
>> > convince you to fork over money for a treatment. A Koran
>> > or bible waving pinhead may actually want to kill you.
>> > BIG difference, in my opinion. And its not a matter of
>> > believing stupid things or not, its a matter of wishing
>> > well or wishing violence towards your fellow humans.
>>
>>
>> That's the best point i've seen made in this discussion so far.
>>
>>
>>
>> -monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
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>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
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