My faith

Dear Pete,

It is a personal relief to finally encounter someone around these parts who openly proclaims belief in the One God, the Living, the Eternal.

I apologize for any misunderstandings due to my harsh tone. You see, I'm probably the worst muslim in the entire planet, tortured by surreptitious vices and a devilish temper. So, I wish that you do not hold any grudges against Islam and the Holy Quran due to my poor example. In humility, I bow down in the presence of Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, the Sustainer, the Cherisher.

As to your question:

1. The Kafirun, or Disbelievers, are those who strictly deny the afterlife and the subsequent retribution by the Supreme Creator, follow their own whims, assert that life and death are happenstance, and cause mischief on the earth. We muslims are strictly forbidden from deferring to their judgment, or allying ourselves with them, since they are wrongdoers.

2. Christians and Jews along with other factions politically aligned to these affliations are dubbed Ehl-i Kitab, or The People of the Book. You seem to fall into this category seeing as you are a Roman Catholic by tradition.

3. There are also those who are somewhere in between, the Mushriqun or the Idol-worshippers, with vague ideas about the afterlife and divinity. I believe `Wagner-worship` belongs to this category.

The first group is surely condemned to eternal flames according to my faith. The second group, unless in open revolt against Allah's revelations, shall be saved as far as I understand. The third group, if they resist the revelation and do not mend their ways, will be sent to Djehennem, or Hell along with the rest of the infidels.

I hope this elucidates my position.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: ambassadorbob
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 29 Ekim 2005 Cumartesi 22:26
Subject: [metatuning] Re: Ozan's political dscussion from tuning, continued here

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:
>
> On Saturday 29 October 2005 5:27 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
> > How many times do I have to tell you that I am not allowed by
principle to
> > discuss religion and politics with self-proclaimed disbelievers?

Dear Ozan,

In an attempt to cut back to a more potentially interesting part of the
discussion, may I ask,

"Disbelievers" in what? I'm very curious about points of dogma (for
lack of a better word, I suppose), having been raised Roman Catholic,
myself. Whatever apostasies I may or may not have survived ;-), you
might say I consider myself a "religious" person, and as such have a
high degree of respect for the similar practices of others. I have my
own moral imperative to question as rigorously as possible my own
beliefs, and thus by inference everyone else's.

If you're willing, I'd very much like to hear about it.

Pete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>The first group is surely condemned to eternal flames according to
>my faith. The second group, unless in open revolt against Allah's
>revelations, shall be saved as far as I understand. The third
>group, if they resist the revelation and do not mend their ways,
>will be sent to Djehennem, or Hell along with the rest of the infidels.

How quaint that the dark ages still flourish in some backwaters of this
planet.

Dear Ozan,

Thank you for a most lucid and concise response!

Being aware of these distinctions makes my own task much clearer and
more hopeful.

Kind regards,

Pete

How equally grotesque that some supposedly self-righteous `modern` people shun their ancestry with the back of their hands in their contemptible disbelief. The Western world knew more honorable days and reared up more respectable fellows in its history indeed. The greatest Western philosophers, writers, artists and musicians were God-fearing people. No wonder their works cannot be surpassed today.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dante Rosati
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 3:03
Subject: RE: [metatuning] My faith

>The first group is surely condemned to eternal flames according to
>my faith. The second group, unless in open revolt against Allah's
>revelations, shall be saved as far as I understand. The third
>group, if they resist the revelation and do not mend their ways,
>will be sent to Djehennem, or Hell along with the rest of the infidels.

How quaint that the dark ages still flourish in some backwaters of this
planet.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And what would your task be Pete, might I ask?
----- Original Message -----
From: ambassadorbob
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 7:25
Subject: [metatuning] Re: My faith

Dear Ozan,

Thank you for a most lucid and concise response!

Being aware of these distinctions makes my own task much clearer and
more hopeful.

Kind regards,

Pete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Ozan,

Thank you for your honesty in explaining your faith. To be fully honest, I
am an unbeliever. If I were to be dishonest, I could claim otherwise.
However, I am an honest unbeliever.

In further honesty, I fit the part of the disbeliever perfectly, except for
one thing. The only mischief that I seek to cause is to bring further honesty
in others, notably through music.

Please understand, however, that telling a living person that they will rot
in hell because he or she honestly believes something might cause some to go
ballistic. There seems little chance of that happening with me because you have
shared most dilligently.

Once I was raised Jewish, and after looking at all the alternatives, I chose
to question the received wisdom of society, musical and otherwise. Please
consider that choosing to hide one's true beliefs is a greater danger than
speaking them straight away. One could pretend and cause truly great mischief.
Honesty might be a higher level for evaluating the "infidel."

Regardless, only fear keeps people tied to unquestioning belief. That, and
inertia.

One last thing, I do believe, and know, that there are many great
non-believers that have created great things for humanity and have performed great
services throughout their lives. Is there no interest in their names? Should they
remain anonymous?

best, Johnny

In a message dated 10/30/2005 6:11:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ozanyarman@... writes:
The greatest Western philosophers, writers, artists and musicians were
God-fearing people. No wonder their works cannot be surpassed today.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Johnny,

It is an honor to encounter an unbeliever who can honestly accept my position which I outlined in all earnest. An enemy is not someone whom you can disrespect if true and principled. However, there are lower beings who identify themselves as disbelievers in your group, as much as there probably are similar muslims and hypocrites in my group.

In music, we may collaborate, despite our differences, and with alacrity too. However, in regards to the sanctity of my faith, I will not argue. My Jihad will lead me elsewhere concerning those topics, and it is best that I avoid any discussions in that direction.

Yes, great minds like Friedrich Engels and Bertrand Russell are significant contributors to humanity, although they lacked much faith.

As the atheist said to Kenneth Harris:

`There is a Bible on that shelf there. But I keep it next to Voltaire - poison and antidote.`

Still, between paradise and hell is Araf, where people with little faith and little adherence to divine morals will be sent, and with the grace of Allah, will be accepted to paradise later on. According to Islam, all will cross the flames of hell, and it will touch all but the ones protected by the fear of their Lord. According to my faith, we shall eventually taste the punishment in proportion to our sins. There is still hope for you and those like you it seems.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@...
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 18:02
Subject: Re: [metatuning] My faith

Dear Ozan,

Thank you for your honesty in explaining your faith. To be fully honest, I
am an unbeliever. If I were to be dishonest, I could claim otherwise.
However, I am an honest unbeliever.

In further honesty, I fit the part of the disbeliever perfectly, except for
one thing. The only mischief that I seek to cause is to bring further honesty
in others, notably through music.

Please understand, however, that telling a living person that they will rot
in hell because he or she honestly believes something might cause some to go
ballistic. There seems little chance of that happening with me because you have
shared most dilligently.

Once I was raised Jewish, and after looking at all the alternatives, I chose
to question the received wisdom of society, musical and otherwise. Please
consider that choosing to hide one's true beliefs is a greater danger than
speaking them straight away. One could pretend and cause truly great mischief.
Honesty might be a higher level for evaluating the "infidel."

Regardless, only fear keeps people tied to unquestioning belief. That, and
inertia.

One last thing, I do believe, and know, that there are many great
non-believers that have created great things for humanity and have performed great
services throughout their lives. Is there no interest in their names? Should they
remain anonymous?

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 10/30/2005 11:34:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ozanyarman@... writes:
According to my faith, we shall eventually taste the punishment in proportion
to our sins. There is still hope for you and those like you it seems.

Cordially,
Ozan

I am fine with the differences between us in what will happen in a possible
hereafter. It is the human punishment in the name of religion rightfully
called terrorism that I cannot accept.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shariah is not terrorism at all. If you make the common mistake of identifying it as such, then be prepared to suffer the consequences with the rest of your kind. This is the last I have to say on this matter.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@...
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 18:49
Subject: Re: [metatuning] My faith

In a message dated 10/30/2005 11:34:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ozanyarman@... writes:
According to my faith, we shall eventually taste the punishment in proportion
to our sins. There is still hope for you and those like you it seems.

Cordially,
Ozan

I am fine with the differences between us in what will happen in a possible
hereafter. It is the human punishment in the name of religion rightfully
called terrorism that I cannot accept.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 10/30/2005 12:24:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ozanyarman@... writes:
Shariah is not terrorism at all. If you make the common mistake of
identifying it as such, then be prepared to suffer the consequences with the rest of
your kind. This is the last I have to say on this matter.

Cordially,
Ozan

I was not speaking of Shariah. I was speaking of the bombing of Bali and all
other soft targets by those that usurp religion. I'm talking about
motorcycle murders in Pakistan by one sect of Islam against another. I am already
suffering the worst of consequences and I am not even dead yet. ;)

And not incidentally, secular murder is heinous as well as religous-ferver
murder. One wonders if this is not a natural mechanism for reducing
over-extended popluations.

all best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well said, Johnny.

-Aaron.

On Sunday 30 October 2005 10:02 am, Afmmjr@... wrote:
> Dear Ozan,
>
> Thank you for your honesty in explaining your faith. To be fully honest, I
> am an unbeliever. If I were to be dishonest, I could claim otherwise.
> However, I am an honest unbeliever.
>
> In further honesty, I fit the part of the disbeliever perfectly, except for
> one thing. The only mischief that I seek to cause is to bring further
> honesty in others, notably through music.
>
> Please understand, however, that telling a living person that they will rot
> in hell because he or she honestly believes something might cause some to
> go ballistic. There seems little chance of that happening with me because
> you have shared most dilligently.
>
> Once I was raised Jewish, and after looking at all the alternatives, I
> chose to question the received wisdom of society, musical and otherwise.
> Please consider that choosing to hide one's true beliefs is a greater
> danger than speaking them straight away. One could pretend and cause truly
> great mischief. Honesty might be a higher level for evaluating the
> "infidel."
>
> Regardless, only fear keeps people tied to unquestioning belief. That, and
> inertia.
>
> One last thing, I do believe, and know, that there are many great
> non-believers that have created great things for humanity and have
> performed great services throughout their lives. Is there no interest in
> their names? Should they remain anonymous?
>
> best, Johnny
>
> In a message dated 10/30/2005 6:11:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> ozanyarman@... writes:
> The greatest Western philosophers, writers, artists and musicians were
> God-fearing people. No wonder their works cannot be surpassed today.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

So if one of my ancestors is a violent pinhead waving a bible I should
embrace his legacy? Is that what you are saying?

People who "fear God" have got it wrong from the start, I'm afraid. Rather
they should fear stupid people waving dusty old books and threatening anyone
who does not share their beliefs with death and damnation. Looking around
the world these days (including the "bible belt" in my own country), I am
afraid, I am very afraid.

And finally, I've never seen any great art that came from religious
fanaticism. I really doubt that Bach or Beethoven would have wanted to kill
you or see you rot in hell because you believed something different from
them. OK, maybe Wagner was a big enough asshole for that, but I'm not really
sure what his religious beliefs were. More likely, he would want you to rot
in hell if you didn't agree that he was the greatest musical genius in
history. Very closely related to religious mania, if you ask me.

Anyway, these are all red herrings. The real terrorists of the world today,
the Bushs and Bin Ladens, do not know God, do not have anything to do with
God at all. They are insane murderers who merely use the name of God to
justify their own quest for power and destruction, no doubt stemming from
some kind of deep-seated feelings of inadequacy and self loathing. Maybe
their toilet training was too severe when they were small children, I dont
know what their fucking problem is. I just wish they were able to pursue
their violent desires to kill each other without innocent people getting
caught in the crossfire.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Ozan Yarman
>Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 6:11 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [metatuning] My faith
>
>
>How equally grotesque that some supposedly self-righteous `modern`
>people shun their ancestry with the back of their hands in their
>contemptible disbelief. The Western world knew more honorable days
>and reared up more respectable fellows in its history indeed. The
>greatest Western philosophers, writers, artists and musicians were
>God-fearing people. No wonder their works cannot be surpassed today.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dante Rosati
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 3:03
> Subject: RE: [metatuning] My faith
>
>
> >The first group is surely condemned to eternal flames according to
> >my faith. The second group, unless in open revolt against Allah's
> >revelations, shall be saved as far as I understand. The third
> >group, if they resist the revelation and do not mend their ways,
> >will be sent to Djehennem, or Hell along with the rest of the infidels.
>
> How quaint that the dark ages still flourish in some backwaters of this
> planet.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I really don't know how to resolve the situation created by all of this.
we are damned to hell and if we do not repent instantly we are not being civilized.

if god created free will , then he wanted us to take a certain responsibility for or actions. possibly this makes even atheists more to his liking than being credited.

i cannot resolve what we have been presented with compared to the religion of rumi, or an ibn arabi or sudwardi

my biggest objection to orthodox islam is that supposedly with mohammed the cycle of imams comes to an end, chrisitianity implies this with jesus too. what is , and is omnipresent, whether defined in religious or scientific terms is in a constant state of unveiling.
maybe by the 108th imam we can say we have reached the horizons capable by mankind.

Dante Rosati wrote:

>So if one of my ancestors is a violent pinhead waving a bible I should
>embrace his legacy? Is that what you are saying?
>
>People who "fear God" have got it wrong from the start, I'm afraid. Rather
>they should fear stupid people waving dusty old books and threatening anyone
>who does not share their beliefs with death and damnation. Looking around
>the world these days (including the "bible belt" in my own country), I am
>afraid, I am very afraid.
>
>And finally, I've never seen any great art that came from religious
>fanaticism. I really doubt that Bach or Beethoven would have wanted to kill
>you or see you rot in hell because you believed something different from
>them. OK, maybe Wagner was a big enough asshole for that, but I'm not really
>sure what his religious beliefs were. More likely, he would want you to rot
>in hell if you didn't agree that he was the greatest musical genius in
>history. Very closely related to religious mania, if you ask me.
>
>Anyway, these are all red herrings. The real terrorists of the world today,
>the Bushs and Bin Ladens, do not know God, do not have anything to do with
>God at all. They are insane murderers who merely use the name of God to
>justify their own quest for power and destruction, no doubt stemming from
>some kind of deep-seated feelings of inadequacy and self loathing. Maybe
>their toilet training was too severe when they were small children, I dont
>know what their fucking problem is. I just wish they were able to pursue
>their violent desires to kill each other without innocent people getting
>caught in the crossfire.
>
> >
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>>Behalf Of Ozan Yarman
>>Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 6:11 AM
>>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [metatuning] My faith
>>
>>
>>How equally grotesque that some supposedly self-righteous `modern`
>>people shun their ancestry with the back of their hands in their
>>contemptible disbelief. The Western world knew more honorable days
>>and reared up more respectable fellows in its history indeed. The
>>greatest Western philosophers, writers, artists and musicians were
>>God-fearing people. No wonder their works cannot be surpassed today.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dante Rosati
>> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: 30 Ekim 2005 Pazar 3:03
>> Subject: RE: [metatuning] My faith
>>
>>
>> >The first group is surely condemned to eternal flames according to
>> >my faith. The second group, unless in open revolt against Allah's
>> >revelations, shall be saved as far as I understand. The third
>> >group, if they resist the revelation and do not mend their ways,
>> >will be sent to Djehennem, or Hell along with the rest of the infidels.
>>
>> How quaint that the dark ages still flourish in some backwaters of this
>> planet.
>>
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>>To post to the list, send to
>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
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