artists/scientists

I think what Carl meant was:

There are plenty of professional scientists who do art on the side, not
for money (or at least not for much money), but in a serious way (engaging
in professional performances, etc.)

But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who made money as an
artist, and did serious scientific research "as a hobby" on the side.

I do know a lot of musicians who are employed as musicians or as music
teachers, who read science books . . but I'm not sure that's the same
thing. (Unless someone who listens to music a lot is a professional
musician.)

Thus we are not talking about a musician who at some point in their youth
got a degree in biology or law in case they would need it for survival.

what about a professional musician who does scientific research in tuning
theory?

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Christopher Bailey
>Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 10:47 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] artists/scientists
>
>
>
>I think what Carl meant was:
>
>There are plenty of professional scientists who do art on the side, not
>for money (or at least not for much money), but in a serious way (engaging
>in professional performances, etc.)
>
>But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who made money as an
>artist, and did serious scientific research "as a hobby" on the side.
>
>I do know a lot of musicians who are employed as musicians or as music
>teachers, who read science books . . but I'm not sure that's the same
>thing. (Unless someone who listens to music a lot is a professional
>musician.)
>
>
>Thus we are not talking about a musician who at some point in their youth
>got a degree in biology or law in case they would need it for survival.
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

why do we think this is the case?
I notice that most musicians don't have time for hobbies, at least not as mind consuming as science can be
and i am not sure what such an activity would fulfill
Christopher Bailey wrote:

>I think what Carl meant was: >
>There are plenty of professional scientists who do art on the side, not >for money (or at least not for much money), but in a serious way (engaging >in professional performances, etc.)
>
>But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who made money as an >artist, and did serious scientific research "as a hobby" on the side.
>
>I do know a lot of musicians who are employed as musicians or as music >teachers, who read science books . . but I'm not sure that's the same >thing. (Unless someone who listens to music a lot is a professional >musician.)
>
>
>Thus we are not talking about a musician who at some point in their youth >got a degree in biology or law in case they would need it for survival.
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> I think what Carl meant was:
>
> There are plenty of professional scientists who do art on the
> side, not for money (or at least not for much money), but in a
> serious way (engaging in professional performances, etc.)
>
> But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who made money
> as an artist, and did serious scientific research "as a hobby"
> on the side.

That is what I meant, though I didn't mean anything 'by' it.
The training/equipment needed to do meaningful science these
days is so huge... though there are exceptions... recently the
young man from New Zealand whose claim that time doesn't exist
did seem to be taken seriously by physicists (I didn't look
into it)... and I'm sure there are plenty of obvious things
we're overlooking, but in _general_ the startup costs for science
are huge. Meanwhile people have made livings as painters by
splattering paint willy-nilly on canvas... not that this doesn't
look cool or that thinking of doing it wasn't difficult... and
the digital audio revolution has put production-quality recording
and sequencing that would make Nancarrow cry on your desktop
for $1000.

-Carl

I think it was monz who observed that there aren't a lot of
mathematical hobbyists out there, whereas I guess there are plenty
of musical hobbyists. Not to resort to understatement, or
anything... :-)

My concern is with the scientific crowd who are constantly policing
what they see as pernicious ideas, whether they see them
as "superstitious" or "discredited". Do people here really think
that Astrology and Tarot and such are so pervasive that people are
TRULY oblivious to science?

I like to call it "debunking beyond reasonable use of forest
products" (but luckily not much of the lists' work in that area has
made it into print).

What one reads ABOUT old authors is almost always MORE pernicious
that what they actually wrote, and usually false, in one way or
another.

If I dig Goethe's theory of color, for example, it's because it's
useful to me as an artist, not because I think it's great science.
But viewed another way (or in the context of its time), it might be.

Mass movements of religious cults (for example) are just the devil
quoting scripture, and should be dealt with as bad politics, NOT
inadequate science.

And if someone can quote chapter & verse of eg Partch or Helmholtz
I'm usually much happier that they READ it than distressed that they
haven't gone beyond it.

High-flown certitudes and ignorance are just about the same, to me.
To call them sides of the same coin is too kind to those with
certitudes.

--- In metatuning@...m, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>
> what about a professional musician who does scientific research in
tuning
> theory?
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
> >Behalf Of Christopher Bailey
> >Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 10:47 AM
> >To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [metatuning] artists/scientists
> >
> >
> >
> >I think what Carl meant was:
> >
> >There are plenty of professional scientists who do art on the
side, not
> >for money (or at least not for much money), but in a serious way
(engaging
> >in professional performances, etc.)
> >
> >But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who made money
as an
> >artist, and did serious scientific research "as a hobby" on the
side.
> >
> >I do know a lot of musicians who are employed as musicians or as
music
> >teachers, who read science books . . but I'm not sure that's the
same
> >thing. (Unless someone who listens to music a lot is a
professional
> >musician.)
> >
> >
> >Thus we are not talking about a musician who at some point in
their youth
> >got a degree in biology or law in case they would need it for
survival.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> >To post to the list, send to
> >metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

On Friday 14 October 2005 11:34 am, ambassadorbob wrote:

> High-flown certitudes and ignorance are just about the same, to me.
> To call them sides of the same coin is too kind to those with
> certitudes.

Is this a 'high-flown certitude'? ;)

Probably, yeah.

:-)

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:
>
> On Friday 14 October 2005 11:34 am, ambassadorbob wrote:
>
> > High-flown certitudes and ignorance are just about the same, to me.
> > To call them sides of the same coin is too kind to those with
> > certitudes.
>
> Is this a 'high-flown certitude'? ;)
>

> Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
> such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
> science?

Yes.

-Carl

Well, then, we need to wipe them out, don't we?

Just kidding. I hope!

Seriously, considered as foundations of modern science, ie astronomy
and psychology, they may still have something to offer as thought
experiments. No?

And again, the study of the roots [of the stories behind] the names
for what they reference can be quite illuminating in itself. I
worry that we toss the baby when we dismiss [them] out of hand.

And as practices that can lead to introspection, I think they're
entirely laudable.

P

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
> > such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
> > science?
>
> Yes.
>
> -Carl
>

> > > Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
> > > such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
> > > science?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Seriously, considered as foundations of modern science, ie
> astronomy and psychology,

In their current form they don't resemble the things which
spawned those sciences. Perhaps they have been polarized by
the division.

> And as practices that can lead to introspection, I think
> they're entirely laudable.

Sure, but they do more than that.

-Carl

On Friday 14 October 2005 1:30 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > > > Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
> > > > such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
> > > > science?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> >
> > Seriously, considered as foundations of modern science, ie
> > astronomy and psychology,
>
> In their current form they don't resemble the things which
> spawned those sciences. Perhaps they have been polarized by
> the division.
>
> > And as practices that can lead to introspection, I think
> > they're entirely laudable.
>
> Sure, but they do more than that.

man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out patterns,
we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and tarot.

-aaron.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > > > Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
> > > > such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
> > > > science?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> >
> > Seriously, considered as foundations of modern science, ie
> > astronomy and psychology,
>
> In their current form they don't resemble the things which
> spawned those sciences. Perhaps they have been polarized by
> the division.

What current form(s)? How are they different?

>
> > And as practices that can lead to introspection, I think
> > they're entirely laudable.
>
> Sure, but they do more than that.

Like what?

Pete

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@a...> wrote:

> man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out
patterns,
> we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and
tarot.
>
> -aaron.
>

That's a pat answer, in the worst sense.

Are you sure they're not there? I'm sure you don't see them. But
I'm not sure I don't. And some folks I have a lot of admiration for
DO see them, at least enough to give me pause.

What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
resulted in the
extermination of traditional cultures around the world, and it's
ongoing.

-pete

> > > > > Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
> > > > > such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
> > > > > science?
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
//
> > In their current form they don't resemble the things which
> > spawned those sciences. Perhaps they have been polarized by
> > the division.
>
> What current form(s)? How are they different?

Modern astrology and its related disciplines (things people
who are into astrology also commonly believe) use pseudoscience.
They borrow scientific terms but use them in novel and
incorrect ways, with the distinct intention of sounding
scientific. I imagine ancient astrology was quite different.

Many forms of mysticism claim to have ancient origins but
most do not predate the 20th-century. Others, like astrology,
do have ancient origins but were changed beyond recognition
after the enlightenment.

> > > And as practices that can lead to introspection, I think
> > > they're entirely laudable.
> >
> > Sure, but they do more than that.
>
> Like what?

Indulge serious mistruths about reality and dangerously
ineffective ways of reasoning. Lots of people act on
advice from psychics, etc. And they pay lots of money
to quacks. It's serious, bad stuff.

-Carl

> What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
> resulted in the extermination of traditional cultures around
> the world, and it's ongoing.

Are you saying you believe truth is ethno-relative?

To the extent that truth and culture are mutually exclusive,
I say good riddance to culture. The remains of culture after
that (and I think the bulk remains) are enough for me.

Not that I'm in favor of cramming science down the throats of
native tribes. I am opposed to attempts to reconstruct some
imagined past of our own, throwing out the truth we already
have. Truth that arose naturally in our culture, to suit the
most discerning ethno-relativist.

As for the claim that our truth is better than theirs, thems
the breaks. I can shoot lasers through their jungle, but
they cannot summon the buffalo spirit in my city. And there
is a reason it is so.

-Carl

got to love them jungle buffalo

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
> > resulted in the extermination of traditional cultures around
> > the world, and it's ongoing.
>
> Are you saying you believe truth is ethno-relative?
>
> To the extent that truth and culture are mutually exclusive,
> I say good riddance to culture. The remains of culture after
> that (and I think the bulk remains) are enough for me.
>
> Not that I'm in favor of cramming science down the throats of
> native tribes. I am opposed to attempts to reconstruct some
> imagined past of our own, throwing out the truth we already
> have. Truth that arose naturally in our culture, to suit the
> most discerning ethno-relativist.
>
> As for the claim that our truth is better than theirs, thems
> the breaks. I can shoot lasers through their jungle, but
> they cannot summon the buffalo spirit in my city. And there
> is a reason it is so.
>
> -Carl
>

KEPLER wrote over 200 books on astrology, introducing some of the aspects between planets.
actually Ptolemy was also an astrologer.
Dane Rudyar in more recent times was a fine composer and the biggest selling writer on astrology in the world.

I agree that many religions and astrology uses science and pseudo scientific jargon to pass it self off as valid.
science has the lead , without a doubt.
even fundementalist rely on "scientific " arguments against evolution
Carl Lumma wrote:

>>>>>>Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
>>>>>>such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
>>>>>>science? >>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>Yes.
>>>>> >>>>>
>//
> >
>>>In their current form they don't resemble the things which
>>>spawned those sciences. Perhaps they have been polarized by
>>>the division.
>>> >>>
>>What current form(s)? How are they different?
>> >>
>
>Modern astrology and its related disciplines (things people
>who are into astrology also commonly believe) use pseudoscience.
>They borrow scientific terms but use them in novel and
>incorrect ways, with the distinct intention of sounding
>scientific. I imagine ancient astrology was quite different.
>
>Many forms of mysticism claim to have ancient origins but
>most do not predate the 20th-century. Others, like astrology,
>do have ancient origins but were changed beyond recognition
>after the enlightenment.
>
> >
>>>>And as practices that can lead to introspection, I think
>>>>they're entirely laudable.
>>>> >>>>
>>>Sure, but they do more than that.
>>> >>>
>>Like what?
>> >>
>
>Indulge serious mistruths about reality and dangerously
>ineffective ways of reasoning. Lots of people act on
>advice from psychics, etc. And they pay lots of money
>to quacks. It's serious, bad stuff.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> KEPLER wrote over 200 books on astrology, introducing some of the
> aspects between planets.
> actually Ptolemy was also an astrologer.
> Dane Rudyar in more recent times was a fine composer and the
> biggest selling writer on astrology in the world.

It was Erv who pointed out to me that Newton was a mystic.
Boy, was he! Also a serious contender for "best scientist ever"
award. So there you go.

> even fundementalist rely on "scientific " arguments against
> evolution

That's the worst.

-Carl

don't you thing science is also involved in this pattern thing.
what is more pattern like than that which is repeatable
(I am not saying it is a bad thing, mind you!)

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>
>
>
>man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out patterns, >we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and tarot.
>
>-aaron.
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

"Science" is predicated on materialism, ie the objective reality of the
external world. This is an extremely naive view of consciousness and its
propensity for projection.

All we experience directly are colors and shapes, etc. and the concepts that
connect these and tell stories about them. If we in this time and culture
are raised from an early age to interpret the colors and shapes as a "body"
and an "external world", so be it, but it is not so simple or cut and dried.

Our experience is woven from many habits of consciousness that we accept as
"the way things are", and culturally we may share many of these constructs
(hence the world "works" more or less) but it is not "the way things are",
merely "the way we have collectively constructed them".

This 3D realm is only one of an infinite number of possible focii of
consciousness, try to retain awareness as you fall asleep for a taste of
some others.

Science is a wonderful creation, but scientific materialism can become a
refuge of the fearful. In some ways the fear is justified: it is not always
so easy to maintain focus here, hence schitzophrenia as well as artistic
creativity and its proximity to madness. If you play with the dials or the
program you may crash the system irretreivably for the duration of this
lifetime. Luckily, death is the re-boot so not to worry. If futzing with the
focus is dangerous, so too is over-straining to keep the focus sharp, like
scientific materialism does. Better is the old school approach Kraig is
reminding us of, where Newton and Kepler combined the best of clear
scientific thinking with the depths of alchemy and astrology. They knew
exactly what they were doing, more so than the unbalanced materialists of
today. The Dalai Lama is also trying to forge a re-union between the "hard"
sciences the west excells at, and the art/science of introspective
consciousness investigation that has been the forte of the east.

Music that has no alchemy or astrology in it is barren.

Dante

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 3:21 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: artists/scientists
>
>
>KEPLER wrote over 200 books on astrology, introducing some of the
>aspects between planets.
> actually Ptolemy was also an astrologer.
> Dane Rudyar in more recent times was a fine composer and the biggest
>selling writer on astrology in the world.
>
>I agree that many religions and astrology uses science and pseudo
>scientific jargon to pass it self off as valid.
>science has the lead , without a doubt.
> even fundementalist rely on "scientific " arguments against evolution
>
>
>
>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>>>>>>>Do people here really think that Astrology and Tarot and
>>>>>>>such are so pervasive that people are TRULY oblivious to
>>>>>>>science?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>//
>>
>>
>>>>In their current form they don't resemble the things which
>>>>spawned those sciences. Perhaps they have been polarized by
>>>>the division.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>What current form(s)? How are they different?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Modern astrology and its related disciplines (things people
>>who are into astrology also commonly believe) use pseudoscience.
>>They borrow scientific terms but use them in novel and
>>incorrect ways, with the distinct intention of sounding
>>scientific. I imagine ancient astrology was quite different.
>>
>>Many forms of mysticism claim to have ancient origins but
>>most do not predate the 20th-century. Others, like astrology,
>>do have ancient origins but were changed beyond recognition
>>after the enlightenment.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>And as practices that can lead to introspection, I think
>>>>>they're entirely laudable.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Sure, but they do more than that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Like what?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Indulge serious mistruths about reality and dangerously
>>ineffective ways of reasoning. Lots of people act on
>>advice from psychics, etc. And they pay lots of money
>>to quacks. It's serious, bad stuff.
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>>To post to the list, send to
>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

the advantage of science is that it makes possible being a mystic by going deeper into matter as opposed to beyond it.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>KEPLER wrote over 200 books on astrology, introducing some of the >>aspects between planets.
>> actually Ptolemy was also an astrologer.
>> Dane Rudyar in more recent times was a fine composer and the
>>biggest selling writer on astrology in the world.
>> >>
>
>It was Erv who pointed out to me that Newton was a mystic.
>Boy, was he! Also a serious contender for "best scientist ever"
>award. So there you go.
>
> >
>> even fundementalist rely on "scientific " arguments against
>>evolution
>> >>
>
>That's the worst.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> "Science" is predicated on materialism, ie the objective reality
> of the external world.

What do you call someone who believes in an external world, but
one made entirely of ideas and no material?

>This is an extremely naive view of consciousness and its
>propensity for projection.

How did we get to consciousness? But let's start with: do
you believe in consciousnesses other than your own, and if
so, where do they exist?

-Carl

Hey Carl-

>> "Science" is predicated on materialism, ie the objective reality
>> of the external world.
>
>What do you call someone who believes in an external world, but
>one made entirely of ideas and no material?

An idealist. 'Cept I'm not sure how an "external" world would be made of
ideas. Ideas or concepts being non-material are also non-spacial and
a-temporal.

>>This is an extremely naive view of consciousness and its
>>propensity for projection.
>
>How did we get to consciousness?

You dont get to consciousness, you must start with it. We have met our
consciousness, and it is us. (to paraphrase Pogo) It is by taking
consciousness for granted, unexamined, that you get this world. Scientific
materialism analyses everything except its own consciousness (notice that
classic western investigation of consciousness consists of experimenting on
someone else's consciousness, or an animals.) Freud advocated we each
investigate our own, with the result that his system has been called
shamanism (as a pejorative, although it should be taken as an endorsement),
and not science.

>But let's start with: do
>you believe in consciousnesses other than your own, and if
>so, where do they exist?

There is no reason to doubt the existence of other consciousnesses, based
simply on observation and deduction. "Where" is a peculiarity of 3D
spacetime, a collective construct of only provisional reality. Consciousness
is really multi-dimensional, in that affinities define locale (like attracts
like) rather than spacial extension, and consciousness can intersect many
regions simultaneously.

Anyway, my point was that alchemy and astrology (ie, the worldview of
correspondances and flavor of being-in-the-world of these approaches), far
from being shams, are essential elements of art. Science may give you the
instruments and the scales but I hope to god it does not give you the music.

Dante

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> Science may give you the instruments and the scales but I hope to
> god it does not give you the music.

It doesn't. Not that I'm god, but that's my belief. And thanks for
your dialogue, Dante.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
> > resulted in the extermination of traditional cultures around
> > the world, and it's ongoing.
>
> Are you saying you believe truth is ethno-relative?

There's no such thing as "truth". It doesn't exist. It's an
abstraction, an idea, at best.

>
> To the extent that truth and culture are mutually exclusive,
> I say good riddance to culture. The remains of culture after
> that (and I think the bulk remains) are enough for me.
>
> Not that I'm in favor of cramming science down the throats of
> native tribes. I am opposed to attempts to reconstruct some
> imagined past of our own, throwing out the truth we already
> have. Truth that arose naturally in our culture, to suit the
> most discerning ethno-relativist.
>
> As for the claim that our truth is better than theirs, thems
> the breaks. I can shoot lasers through their jungle, but
> they cannot summon the buffalo spirit in my city. And there
> is a reason it is so.
>
> -Carl
>

So you're saying your "truth" is better that "theirs". And so is
your culture. Excellent.

The global monoculture is good thing! (As long as it's
capitalist, "democratic", and atheistic, right?) Right on!

Who needs Indian, or gamelan, or gagaku, or gnawa, or Ewe or Bata or
Turkish or Iranian or any of that nonsense? It's all a bunch of
racket by a bunch of ignoramuses. And those field recordings?
Hideous. Can't they clean 'em up digitally, or something? On
second thought, don't bother. It's just a bunch of senseless
yelling and pounding, anyway. Gives me a headache.

Go get 'em, cowboy! Wipe 'em out! Give 'em one for ole Pesky Pete!

And hoist one for me, when you're done.

Cheers,

Pete

Much of what i have observed in music, one example being Beethoven is what i have always called to myself as ' alchemical processes".
the combination, distillations, separation, coagulation, molting, etc. with the end result being the mysterium cojunctiones of the thematic material, and or the range in which these themes encompass.

the last statement is what i have trying to convey for quite a while here

Dante Rosati wrote:

>
>
>Anyway, my point was that alchemy and astrology (ie, the worldview of
>correspondances and flavor of being-in-the-world of these approaches), far
>from being shams, are essential elements of art. Science may give you the
>instruments and the scales but I hope to god it does not give you the music.
>
>Dante
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> >>This is an extremely naive view of consciousness and its
> >>propensity for projection.
> >
> >How did we get to consciousness?
>
> You dont get to consciousness, you must start with it.

Ok.

> >But let's start with: do you believe in consciousnesses
> >other than your own, and if so, where do they exist?
>
> There is no reason to doubt the existence of other
> consciousnesses, based simply on observation and deduction.

Is there a reason to believe in them?

> "Where" is a peculiarity of 3D spacetime,

I meant to include things like 3D spacetime as answers.

> Consciousness is really multi-dimensional, in that affinities
> define locale (like attracts like) rather than spacial
> extension, and consciousness can intersect many regions
> simultaneously.

So the material world is separate from a world of multiple
consciousnesses in your view?

-Carl

> So you're saying your "truth" is better that "theirs".

It's better in that it's more true. Not better in that it
serves us better.

> And so is your culture.

No.

> The global monoculture is good thing! (As long as it's
> capitalist, "democratic", and atheistic, right?) Right on!

No.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > So you're saying your "truth" is better that "theirs".
>
> It's better in that it's more true.

The unqualified assertion that materialistic science is "more true"
(than what? I don't know) is what makes it possible for
pseudoscience to thrive, I think. It sets the tone for a credulous
person to buy into pseudo-science. Who doesn't want to believe that
their worldview is somehow validated or shared by the best and the
brightest? And if pseudoscience is engaging and easy, while science
[seems to get] more and more impenetrable and uncertain, or haughty
and difficult, who can blame them?

I suspect that some of my own real reverence for science and
scientists came about through dalliances with the "pseudo-sciences",
ie a search for meaning, and yes, truth.

If there's an alarming trend of contempt for science, I suspect it's
because there's something genuinely contemptible about its
advocates. Maybe it's just bad manners.

> Not better in that it
> serves us better.
>

I don't know what you mean. It's not self-serving, as you see it?
That would be good.

-P

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <peteysan@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > > What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
> > > resulted in the extermination of traditional cultures around
> > > the world, and it's ongoing.
> >
> > Are you saying you believe truth is ethno-relative?
>
> There's no such thing as "truth". It doesn't exist. It's an
> abstraction, an idea, at best.

Is that statement true or false?

> >
> > To the extent that truth and culture are mutually exclusive,
> > I say good riddance to culture. The remains of culture after
> > that (and I think the bulk remains) are enough for me.
> >
> > Not that I'm in favor of cramming science down the throats of
> > native tribes. I am opposed to attempts to reconstruct some
> > imagined past of our own, throwing out the truth we already
> > have. Truth that arose naturally in our culture, to suit the
> > most discerning ethno-relativist.
> >
> > As for the claim that our truth is better than theirs, thems
> > the breaks. I can shoot lasers through their jungle, but
> > they cannot summon the buffalo spirit in my city. And there
> > is a reason it is so.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
>
> So you're saying your "truth" is better that "theirs". And so is
> your culture. Excellent.
>
> The global monoculture is good thing! (As long as it's
> capitalist, "democratic", and atheistic, right?) Right on!
>
> Who needs Indian, or gamelan, or gagaku, or gnawa, or Ewe or Bata
or
> Turkish or Iranian or any of that nonsense? It's all a bunch of
> racket by a bunch of ignoramuses. And those field recordings?
> Hideous. Can't they clean 'em up digitally, or something? On
> second thought, don't bother. It's just a bunch of senseless
> yelling and pounding, anyway. Gives me a headache.
>
> Go get 'em, cowboy! Wipe 'em out! Give 'em one for ole Pesky
Pete!
>
> And hoist one for me, when you're done.

I don't think Carl was saying all that. You're simplyfying his
position overly much.

-Aaron.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <peteysan@s...>
wrote:

> If there's an alarming trend of contempt for science, I suspect it's
> because there's something genuinely contemptible about its
> advocates. Maybe it's just bad manners.

While anyone is capable of 'bad manners', I suspect that this is
really a poor generalization.

The roots of pseudoscience, like anything remarkably lamentable in
this world, lie in the ignorance of the average personfor the
whys,was, means, and wherfores of science in practice.

-Aaron.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>
> Hey Carl-
>
> You dont get to consciousness, you must start with it. We have met
our
> consciousness, and it is us. (to paraphrase Pogo) It is by taking
> consciousness for granted, unexamined, that you get this world.
Scientific
> materialism analyses everything except its own consciousness
(notice that
> classic western investigation of consciousness consists of
experimenting on
> someone else's consciousness, or an animals.) Freud advocated we
each
> investigate our own, with the result that his system has been
called
> shamanism (as a pejorative, although it should be taken as an
endorsement),
> and not science.

I think there is good reason that scientists have the attitude that
one should not tust one's own observations without the
corraborations of others....after all, look at how poorly our memory
works sometimes (as ilustratated by misaken witness sand
testimonials)

<snip>

> Anyway, my point was that alchemy and astrology (ie, the worldview
of
> correspondances and flavor of being-in-the-world of these
approaches), far
> from being shams, are essential elements of art. Science may give
you the
> instruments and the scales but I hope to god it does not give you
the music.

In my heart of hearts and mnd of minds I think the whole art/science
feeling/thought thing is an artificial division, an artifact of
language.

-Aaron.

>I think there is good reason that scientists have the attitude that
>one should not tust one's own observations without the
>corraborations of others....after all, look at how poorly our memory
>works sometimes (as ilustratated by misaken witness sand
>testimonials)

By all means if we are trying to establish the fabric of consensus reality.
In the end though all we have is our subjectivity, even to the extent that
we pick and choose which aspects of consensus reality to attend to (if any-
consider the world of the schizophrenic).

The score of a Beethoven sonata may be accesible to consensus reality, but
the meaning-content is not. In the case of love, there is not even that
much, unless you consider electrical impulses in the brain of the lover of
some significance. Between music and love, that pretty much covers the
things I consider most of value in life- and neither is essentially
available to a scientific/materialist world-view.

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to live without my computer or ipod (or
the scales I play music in!), so science can't be all bad. ;-)

>In my heart of hearts and mnd of minds I think the whole art/science
>feeling/thought thing is an artificial division, an artifact of
>language.

Well if science is all about reproducibility and art is never about
reproducibility, then I think there's a valid distinction. Feelings are
personal states whereas thought is universal: when we both contemplate a
Euclid proof, we are sharing a perception of something "real" in a platonic
sense, in a scientific sense. How that makes us feel is completely personal
and irreproducible.

Dante

On Friday 14 October 2005 9:56 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>
> <aaron@a...> wrote:
> > man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out
>
> patterns,
>
> > we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and
>
> tarot.
>
> > -aaron.
>
> That's a pat answer, in the worst sense.
>
> Are you sure they're not there? I'm sure you don't see them. But
> I'm not sure I don't. And some folks I have a lot of admiration for
> DO see them, at least enough to give me pause.

re: astrology, i'm certain that there are not only 12 types of people in the
world. i'm also certain that at the time of my birth, the layout of stars all
thousands or millions of light years away from earth and each other had an
insignificant, to be generous, effect on me. have you ever considered that
the very idea of a constellation is not even universal culture to culture? a
constellation is a shape we see and put upon something that is not really
'there'.

the astrologist, psychic, tarot reader, etc. always make vague enough
predicitions that the person or client who believes them fills in the rest,
based on their belief in the validity of the procedure, and the human
psychological mechanism that makes rorschach tests work.

there is not, nor has there been any demonstrable or repeatable proof that any
of these things are real. they are 'real' only in the mind of the believer.

> What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
> resulted in the
> extermination of traditional cultures around the world, and it's
> ongoing.

not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to desiring the
extirmination of cultures. you are not making careful distinctions here, but
sweeping knee-jerk statements, it seems. you make it appear as if all
scientists are part of an anti-third world cabal!

Why do you put tarot in with astrology?
I have known personally Tarot readers that were quite accurate.

Also I might have mentioned that my own father was a psychic (never for money)so i would say it is unfortunate that you have not been around any one with such talents. I had a friend who all of a sudden one day had people communicating to her, found two dead bodies buried in such process, which almost got her arrested for doing the crime.
But on a broader more public level.
there was a world music festival at the smithsonian, the very fist act a noon were some voodoo drumming from haiti.
The performance was stopped because someone got possessed in the third row and has taken to the hospital.

and the idea of 'repeatable " demonstration seems out of place in a universe where nothing is repeating.
john Cages use of the I ching produced better music that myriad of rational manipulations of tone rows

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>On Friday 14 October 2005 9:56 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> >
>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>>
>><aaron@a...> wrote:
>> >>
>>>man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out
>>> >>>
>>patterns,
>>
>> >>
>>>we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and
>>> >>>
>>tarot.
>>
>> >>
>>>-aaron.
>>> >>>
>>That's a pat answer, in the worst sense.
>>
>>Are you sure they're not there? I'm sure you don't see them. But
>>I'm not sure I don't. And some folks I have a lot of admiration for
>>DO see them, at least enough to give me pause.
>> >>
>
>re: astrology, i'm certain that there are not only 12 types of people in the >world. i'm also certain that at the time of my birth, the layout of stars all >thousands or millions of light years away from earth and each other had an >insignificant, to be generous, effect on me. have you ever considered that >the very idea of a constellation is not even universal culture to culture? a >constellation is a shape we see and put upon something that is not really >'there'.
>
>the astrologist, psychic, tarot reader, etc. always make vague enough >predicitions that the person or client who believes them fills in the rest, >based on their belief in the validity of the procedure, and the human >psychological mechanism that makes rorschach tests work.
>
>there is not, nor has there been any demonstrable or repeatable proof that any >of these things are real. they are 'real' only in the mind of the believer.
>
> >
>>What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
>>resulted in the
>>extermination of traditional cultures around the world, and it's
>>ongoing.
>> >>
>
>not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to desiring the >extirmination of cultures. you are not making careful distinctions here, but >sweeping knee-jerk statements, it seems. you make it appear as if all >scientists are part of an anti-third world cabal!
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Monday 17 October 2005 11:10 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> Why do you put tarot in with astrology?
> I have known personally Tarot readers that were quite accurate.

how so?

> Also I might have mentioned that my own father was a psychic (never for
> money)so i would say it is unfortunate that you have not been around any
> one with such talents.

i'd like to, mostly because i'm curious about all the claims.

most scientific studies have either debunked, or found inconclusive, the
exisitence of such phenomenon.

i will say i'm pretty much a believer in ghosts. i go back and forth about it,
but i've had some strange experiences myself in relation to a place's
'eneregy' or 'vibe' as they say.

when all is said and done, i think that these things, if they exist, are
natural phenomenon. i don't believe in the 'supernatural' in the sense that i
don't think nature contradicts itself: if it *can* happen, and does, it's
part of the 'laws of nature', and is thus 'natural'.

> I had a friend who all of a sudden one day had
> people communicating to her, found two dead bodies buried in such
> process, which almost got her arrested for doing the crime.

whoa...has anybody interviewed her? has she done any tests?

i don't know perhaps this stuff is real. i tend to doubt it mostly because few
who claim to be able to see things, channel ancient spirits, etc. tell us
anything useful and concrete. they use purposefully vague and general laguage
when describing anything.

on a more sinister level, there are frauds who dupe people for $. I had a
friend who was told by a psychic that he was cursed, and was offered a
'cleansing' to the tune of $10,000! Luckily for him, he was not that stupid o
be *that* conned.

> But on a broader more public level.
> there was a world music festival at the smithsonian, the very fist act a
> noon were some voodoo drumming from haiti.
> The performance was stopped because someone got possessed in the third
> row and has taken to the hospital.

i would suspect that someone would have to be suggestible for this to work,
but who knows....it woud be interesting to see a study about thhis
phenomenon.

> and the idea of 'repeatable " demonstration seems out of place in a
> universe where nothing is repeating.

a toss a ball and it falls over and over again. yes not the same way twice,
but it falls every time.

maybe the things that science can study are the predictible things like
gravity.

i tend to be skeptical about extraordinary claims, and there are certainly a
lot of fraudulant people in the world.

> john Cages use of the I ching produced better music that myriad of
> rational manipulations of tone rows

i agree; i think randomness sometimes is more 'inspired' than order...

xenakis acknowledged this, and started to use randomness in his music for that
very reason.

-aaron.

> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> >On Friday 14 October 2005 9:56 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> >>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
> >>
> >><aaron@a...> wrote:
> >>>man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out
> >>
> >>patterns,
> >>
> >>>we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and
> >>
> >>tarot.
> >>
> >>>-aaron.
> >>
> >>That's a pat answer, in the worst sense.
> >>
> >>Are you sure they're not there? I'm sure you don't see them. But
> >>I'm not sure I don't. And some folks I have a lot of admiration for
> >>DO see them, at least enough to give me pause.
> >
> >re: astrology, i'm certain that there are not only 12 types of people in
> > the world. i'm also certain that at the time of my birth, the layout of
> > stars all thousands or millions of light years away from earth and each
> > other had an insignificant, to be generous, effect on me. have you ever
> > considered that the very idea of a constellation is not even universal
> > culture to culture? a constellation is a shape we see and put upon
> > something that is not really 'there'.
> >
> >the astrologist, psychic, tarot reader, etc. always make vague enough
> >predicitions that the person or client who believes them fills in the
> > rest, based on their belief in the validity of the procedure, and the
> > human psychological mechanism that makes rorschach tests work.
> >
> >there is not, nor has there been any demonstrable or repeatable proof that
> > any of these things are real. they are 'real' only in the mind of the
> > believer.
> >
> >>What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
> >>resulted in the
> >>extermination of traditional cultures around the world, and it's
> >>ongoing.
> >
> >not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to desiring the
> >extirmination of cultures. you are not making careful distinctions here,
> > but sweeping knee-jerk statements, it seems. you make it appear as if all
> > scientists are part of an anti-third world cabal!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> >To post to the list, send to
> >metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links

Aaron-

There seem to be lots of shows on tv these days about psychics who aid
police departments in finding missing persons or bodies. If you listen to
the astonishment of the police when a psychic leads them to a body they've
been looking for and can't find there is no doubt about the reality of the
phenomena. Some of the cases are mind blowing.

Dante

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Aaron Krister Johnson
>Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:29 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] tarot, psychics and voodoo mongers
>
>
>On Monday 17 October 2005 11:10 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
>> Why do you put tarot in with astrology?
>> I have known personally Tarot readers that were quite accurate.
>
>how so?
>
>> Also I might have mentioned that my own father was a psychic (never for
>> money)so i would say it is unfortunate that you have not been around any
>> one with such talents.
>
>i'd like to, mostly because i'm curious about all the claims.
>
>most scientific studies have either debunked, or found inconclusive, the
>exisitence of such phenomenon.
>
>i will say i'm pretty much a believer in ghosts. i go back and
>forth about it,
>but i've had some strange experiences myself in relation to a place's
>'eneregy' or 'vibe' as they say.
>
>when all is said and done, i think that these things, if they exist, are
>natural phenomenon. i don't believe in the 'supernatural' in the
>sense that i
>don't think nature contradicts itself: if it *can* happen, and does, it's
>part of the 'laws of nature', and is thus 'natural'.
>
>> I had a friend who all of a sudden one day had
>> people communicating to her, found two dead bodies buried in such
>> process, which almost got her arrested for doing the crime.
>
>whoa...has anybody interviewed her? has she done any tests?
>
>i don't know perhaps this stuff is real. i tend to doubt it mostly
>because few
>who claim to be able to see things, channel ancient spirits, etc. tell us
>anything useful and concrete. they use purposefully vague and
>general laguage
>when describing anything.
>
>on a more sinister level, there are frauds who dupe people for $. I had a
>friend who was told by a psychic that he was cursed, and was offered a
>'cleansing' to the tune of $10,000! Luckily for him, he was not
>that stupid o
>be *that* conned.
>
>> But on a broader more public level.
>> there was a world music festival at the smithsonian, the very fist act a
>> noon were some voodoo drumming from haiti.
>> The performance was stopped because someone got possessed in the third
>> row and has taken to the hospital.
>
>i would suspect that someone would have to be suggestible for this
>to work,
>but who knows....it woud be interesting to see a study about thhis
>phenomenon.
>
>
>> and the idea of 'repeatable " demonstration seems out of place in a
>> universe where nothing is repeating.
>
>a toss a ball and it falls over and over again. yes not the same
>way twice,
>but it falls every time.
>
>maybe the things that science can study are the predictible things like
>gravity.
>
>i tend to be skeptical about extraordinary claims, and there are
>certainly a
>lot of fraudulant people in the world.
>
>> john Cages use of the I ching produced better music that myriad of
>> rational manipulations of tone rows
>
>i agree; i think randomness sometimes is more 'inspired' than order...
>
>xenakis acknowledged this, and started to use randomness in his
>music for that
>very reason.
>
>-aaron.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
>> >On Friday 14 October 2005 9:56 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
>> >>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>> >>
>> >><aaron@a...> wrote:
>> >>>man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out
>> >>
>> >>patterns,
>> >>
>> >>>we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and
>> >>
>> >>tarot.
>> >>
>> >>>-aaron.
>> >>
>> >>That's a pat answer, in the worst sense.
>> >>
>> >>Are you sure they're not there? I'm sure you don't see them. But
>> >>I'm not sure I don't. And some folks I have a lot of admiration for
>> >>DO see them, at least enough to give me pause.
>> >
>> >re: astrology, i'm certain that there are not only 12 types of people in
>> > the world. i'm also certain that at the time of my birth, the layout of
>> > stars all thousands or millions of light years away from earth and each
>> > other had an insignificant, to be generous, effect on me. have you ever
>> > considered that the very idea of a constellation is not even universal
>> > culture to culture? a constellation is a shape we see and put upon
>> > something that is not really 'there'.
>> >
>> >the astrologist, psychic, tarot reader, etc. always make vague enough
>> >predicitions that the person or client who believes them fills in the
>> > rest, based on their belief in the validity of the procedure, and the
>> > human psychological mechanism that makes rorschach tests work.
>> >
>> >there is not, nor has there been any demonstrable or repeatable
>proof that
>> > any of these things are real. they are 'real' only in the mind of the
>> > believer.
>> >
>> >>What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
>> >>resulted in the
>> >>extermination of traditional cultures around the world, and it's
>> >>ongoing.
>> >
>> >not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to desiring the
>> >extirmination of cultures. you are not making careful distinctions here,
>> > but sweeping knee-jerk statements, it seems. you make it
>appear as if all
>> > scientists are part of an anti-third world cabal!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Meta Tuning meta-info:
>> >
>> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>> >metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> >Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>> >
>> >To post to the list, send to
>> >metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> >You don't have to be a member to post.
>> >
>> >
>> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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>
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>
>
>

yes there are frauds. my father user to say there were two types of psychics.
fakes and those that were sick.
Since the overindulgence in such activity has a tendency to exhaust the person

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>On Monday 17 October 2005 11:10 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> >
>>Why do you put tarot in with astrology?
>> I have known personally Tarot readers that were quite accurate.
>> >>
>
>how so?
>
> >
>> Also I might have mentioned that my own father was a psychic (never for
>>money)so i would say it is unfortunate that you have not been around any
>>one with such talents.
>> >>
>
>i'd like to, mostly because i'm curious about all the claims.
>
>most scientific studies have either debunked, or found inconclusive, the >exisitence of such phenomenon.
>
>i will say i'm pretty much a believer in ghosts. i go back and forth about it, >but i've had some strange experiences myself in relation to a place's >'eneregy' or 'vibe' as they say.
>
>when all is said and done, i think that these things, if they exist, are >natural phenomenon. i don't believe in the 'supernatural' in the sense that i >don't think nature contradicts itself: if it *can* happen, and does, it's >part of the 'laws of nature', and is thus 'natural'.
>
> >
>>I had a friend who all of a sudden one day had >>people communicating to her, found two dead bodies buried in such
>>process, which almost got her arrested for doing the crime.
>> >>
>
>whoa...has anybody interviewed her? has she done any tests?
>
>i don't know perhaps this stuff is real. i tend to doubt it mostly because few >who claim to be able to see things, channel ancient spirits, etc. tell us >anything useful and concrete. they use purposefully vague and general laguage >when describing anything.
>
>on a more sinister level, there are frauds who dupe people for $. I had a >friend who was told by a psychic that he was cursed, and was offered a >'cleansing' to the tune of $10,000! Luckily for him, he was not that stupid o >be *that* conned.
>
> >
>> But on a broader more public level.
>>there was a world music festival at the smithsonian, the very fist act a
>>noon were some voodoo drumming from haiti.
>> The performance was stopped because someone got possessed in the third
>>row and has taken to the hospital.
>> >>
>
>i would suspect that someone would have to be suggestible for this to work, >but who knows....it woud be interesting to see a study about thhis >phenomenon.
>
>
> >
>> and the idea of 'repeatable " demonstration seems out of place in a
>>universe where nothing is repeating.
>> >>
>
>a toss a ball and it falls over and over again. yes not the same way twice, >but it falls every time.
>
>maybe the things that science can study are the predictible things like >gravity.
>
>i tend to be skeptical about extraordinary claims, and there are certainly a >lot of fraudulant people in the world.
>
> >
>> john Cages use of the I ching produced better music that myriad of
>>rational manipulations of tone rows
>> >>
>
>i agree; i think randomness sometimes is more 'inspired' than order...
>
>xenakis acknowledged this, and started to use randomness in his music for that >very reason.
>
>-aaron.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>>Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
>> >>
>>>On Friday 14 October 2005 9:56 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
>>> >>>
>>>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>>
>>>><aaron@a...> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>>>man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good at seeking out
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>patterns,
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>>>we will see them even when they are not there; hence astrology and
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>tarot.
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>>>-aaron.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>That's a pat answer, in the worst sense.
>>>>
>>>>Are you sure they're not there? I'm sure you don't see them. But
>>>>I'm not sure I don't. And some folks I have a lot of admiration for
>>>>DO see them, at least enough to give me pause.
>>>> >>>>
>>>re: astrology, i'm certain that there are not only 12 types of people in
>>>the world. i'm also certain that at the time of my birth, the layout of
>>>stars all thousands or millions of light years away from earth and each
>>>other had an insignificant, to be generous, effect on me. have you ever
>>>considered that the very idea of a constellation is not even universal
>>>culture to culture? a constellation is a shape we see and put upon
>>>something that is not really 'there'.
>>>
>>>the astrologist, psychic, tarot reader, etc. always make vague enough
>>>predicitions that the person or client who believes them fills in the
>>>rest, based on their belief in the validity of the procedure, and the
>>>human psychological mechanism that makes rorschach tests work.
>>>
>>>there is not, nor has there been any demonstrable or repeatable proof that
>>>any of these things are real. they are 'real' only in the mind of the
>>>believer.
>>>
>>> >>>
>>>>What you're saying is the same kind of ethnocentricity that's
>>>>resulted in the
>>>>extermination of traditional cultures around the world, and it's
>>>>ongoing.
>>>> >>>>
>>>not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to desiring the
>>>extirmination of cultures. you are not making careful distinctions here,
>>>but sweeping knee-jerk statements, it seems. you make it appear as if all
>>>scientists are part of an anti-third world cabal!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>>
>>>To post to the list, send to
>>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>> >>>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>>I think there is good reason that scientists have the attitude
>>that one should not tust one's own observations without the
>>corraborations of others....after all, look at how poorly our
>>memory works sometimes (as ilustratated by misaken witness sand
>>testimonials)
>
> By all means if we are trying to establish the fabric of
> consensus reality. In the end though all we have is our
> subjectivity,

That's what I used to think. But these days I prefer to start
with only Occam's razor and from that get that my subjectivity
is not special. We can 'bootstrap' ourselves out of our own
existence (many people see fit to leave a Will). A separate
spirit world isn't ruled out (and many people also believe in
life after death), but the razor gives us no reason to believe
in it.

> The score of a Beethoven sonata may be accesible to consensus
> reality, but the meaning-content is not. In the case of love,
> there is not even that much, unless you consider electrical
> impulses in the brain of the lover of some significance.
> Between music and love, that pretty much covers the things I
> consider most of value in life- and neither is essentially
> available to a scientific/materialist world-view.

You've picked two things we don't have an adequate theory of
yet. In the middle ages, may I suggest you might have believed
more than two things out of reach of consensus reality? Once
we have a theory of intelligence... (though we may discover that
any such theory has necessary limitations, and that would be
cool...)

> if science is all about reproducibility and art is
> never about reproducibility, then I think there's a valid
> distinction.

I tend to use the terms "science" and "reasoning" synonomously,
but maybe I shouldn't.

Throughout history there have been many myths and stories
about two kinds of thinking: heart and mind. I'm reminded of
the Rush album _Hemispheres_, and of course, Star Trek. I've
always thought it was an illusion. Perhaps it is rooted, as
the cover of the album suggests, in the design of the human
brain. It might then manifest itself in language as Aaron
suggests. And maybe if the brain is designed that way, it
means it *is* fundamental to intelligence in our universe...
emotions giving a kind of default behavior when no conditioned
response is available... maybe they're a 'unitless' result of
a 'factor analysis' of many more specific thoughts, necessary
for long-range planning...

> Feelings are personal states whereas thought is universal:
> when we both contemplate a Euclid proof, we are sharing a
> perception of something "real" in a platonic sense, in a
> scientific sense. How that makes us feel is completely personal
> and irreproducible.

If minds use deterministic processes I might have a simulation
of you do the proof and the feeling would be reproduced.

-Carl

Well said, Aaron. - C.

> i will say i'm pretty much a believer in ghosts. i go back and
> forth about it, but i've had some strange experiences myself in
> relation to a place's 'eneregy' or 'vibe' as they say.

It's funny how we group ghosts, tarrot, and astrology together.
I think there's a reason for it. One explanation I've heard is
that existing scientific theories can't explain them so
scientists group them together. But I don't think a statement
like 'existing theories can't explain them' is meaningful. Like
you, I believe that if any of these exist, they can be explained.
And I don't think scientists have committed a conspiracy of
grouping.

But I think they're grouped together because they're all things
that either don't exist, or they're wrong explanations of things
that do exist. Astrology and tarrot are more the former, though
as you point out the desire to fill in the blanks is a real part
of human psychology. Ghosts are more an example of the latter:

The mind tends to synthesize perceptions into gestalts. You
might have the feeling that somebody's behind you. You can't
see them, and it sometimes (in my experience anyway) feels
like you're sensing their 'energy'. But what you actually
sense are minute sounds, air currents, temperature variations,
and you subconsciously synthesize them into a gestalt. And
indeed, the sensitivity of human hearing, smell, touch is
much MORE magical to me than some forever-unknowable 'energy'
detector.

Auditory scene analysis is another example of gestalt
perception. Humans can locate instruments in an orchestra --
where they are in the room. It just *sounds* like they're
'over there'. But there are at least 3 primary, completely
different mechanisms used to figure it out, and any 1 of them
is usually enough if the environment is making the other 2
unusable, but the sensation is the same. Furher, the
conscious expectation of the possible locations of what you're
looking for feedback to the auditory system and fine tune it
to work better over the expected area. For example, priming
experiments show that when you're looking for something (say,
a red triangle), you recognize it faster and recognize other
shapes more slowly. It's how optical illusions work -- they
use context cues to fool the visual system.

Vision is the ultimate gestalt. You see a scene, you think
like a camera. But really your eyes are darting all over
the place (saccades), scanning your fovea over where you
need detail. And the result is you percieve detail everywhere
when really you can only see detail over some small fraction
of the field of view at any time. Higher up, neurons are
sharpening edges and hunting for particular shapes like red
triangles. And because of a design flaw, the optic nerve
has to go through the retina to get to the brain so there are
two big holes in your vision. But your brain fills them in.
If you haven't seen a demo of this, you will *love*...

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html

One of the reasons I love optical illusions and psychedelic
drugs is that they show us that we *make* our world, not that
we percieve it MORE correctly than by any other means.

But anyway, back to ghosts. Memories of similar places, bad
smells of mold, sounds of roach infestations, and John Chalmers
has suggested low-frequency standing waves, might all give a
place a bad vibe. Good vibes the same. And partial or mixed
memories might cause deja vu.

I'm not sure what experiences you've had (I'd love it if you
shared, though), but my guess is that 'contact from the dead'
isn't the best explanation. I've had unexpected things
happen in a house I shared. And I had fun allowing myself
to believe and tell people that it was a ghost. But I knew
someone in the house had probably been sleepwalking, or playing
a prank, etc.

That's not to say I think contact from the dead is impossible.

> > The performance was stopped because someone got possessed
> > in the third row and has taken to the hospital.
>
> i would suspect that someone would have to be suggestible for
> this to work,

Lots of people freak out at concerts. Holy rollers, etc.
Or maybe a seisure of some kind.

Seisures are interesting. Basically just bad patterns of
firing that get going, much like a tornado or dust devil.
Is it more awesome or less awesome that music can do this
or that it can cause people to be "possessed"?

-Carl

> Aaron-
>
> There seem to be lots of shows on tv these days about psychics
> who aid police departments in finding missing persons or bodies.
> If you listen to the astonishment of the police when a psychic
> leads them to a body they've been looking for and can't find
> there is no doubt about the reality of the phenomena. Some of
> the cases are mind blowing.
>
> Dante

Psychics can fool regular people, I'm sure they can fool cops.
They could also quite have better crime-solving ability than
cops.

I used to watch Unsolved Mysteries, and they featureded some
pyschic crime solving. It was never convincing to me though.

The phenomenon might be real though. Of course, I have known
some people with incredible intuition. Are they psychic?

-Carl

On Monday 17 October 2005 11:41 am, Dante Rosati wrote:
> Aaron-
>
> There seem to be lots of shows on tv these days about psychics who aid
> police departments in finding missing persons or bodies. If you listen to
> the astonishment of the police when a psychic leads them to a body they've
> been looking for and can't find there is no doubt about the reality of the
> phenomena. Some of the cases are mind blowing.
>

Yes, I have seen them....

The truth is I don't know what to think about that stuff. I'm kind of on the
fence with it, as I am about ghosts, etc. I do think that if it *is* real,
then it's not amazing at all, but a part of nature we don't normally access
in day-to-day life.

I don't rule out the reality of it, but I'm quite skeptical, esp. for the
reasons of fraud I had already mentioned.

-Aaron

I will say for those who have such abilities, it opens as many questions for them as it does for you.
While it is something that happens, it is not understood or definable even to the people who it happens to descend upon.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>
>
>The phenomenon might be real though. Of course, I have known
>some people with incredible intuition. Are they psychic?
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

ok i saw one recently: missing dude in Texas. Psychic consulted by family
member in Cali. Psychic names small town in Texas and says "if you dont go
there right away you will never find out what happened to X". Family memeber
contacts relatives in Texas who promptly drive to small town in middle of
night. On road they pass their missing relative's truck, being driven by the
murderes, who are leaving the area for good. Police car is flagged down and
murderes caught. Cops are gobsmacked.

Calling it "intuition" instead of "psychic" is only a semantic game
attempting to defuse a bomb thrown at the materialist worldview.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 4:00 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: tarot, psychics and voodoo mongers
>
>
>> Aaron-
>>
>> There seem to be lots of shows on tv these days about psychics
>> who aid police departments in finding missing persons or bodies.
>> If you listen to the astonishment of the police when a psychic
>> leads them to a body they've been looking for and can't find
>> there is no doubt about the reality of the phenomena. Some of
>> the cases are mind blowing.
>>
>> Dante
>
>Psychics can fool regular people, I'm sure they can fool cops.
>They could also quite have better crime-solving ability than
>cops.
>
>I used to watch Unsolved Mysteries, and they featureded some
>pyschic crime solving. It was never convincing to me though.
>
>The phenomenon might be real though. Of course, I have known
>some people with incredible intuition. Are they psychic?
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

this is pure poetry Dante!

a semantic game
attempting to defuse a bomb thrown at the materialist worldview.

Dante Rosati wrote:

>
>Calling it "intuition" instead of "psychic" is only a semantic game
>attempting to defuse a bomb thrown at the materialist worldview.
>
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> ok i saw one recently: missing dude in Texas. Psychic
> consulted by family member in Cali.

Psychic also in Cali?

> Psychic names small town in Texas and says "if you dont go
> there right away you will never find out what happened to X".
> Family memeber contacts relatives in Texas who promptly drive
> to small town in middle of night. On road they pass their
> missing relative's truck, being driven by the murderes,

On the road to the town, or in the town?

> Cops are gobsmacked.

Nothing new there.

> Calling it "intuition" instead of "psychic" is only a
> semantic game attempting to defuse a bomb thrown at the
> materialist worldview.

I was coming home from work one rainy night early this year.
Getting on the freeway, I was stopped on the ramp in the
worst traffic jam I'd ever seen. After an hour people had
turned off their cars. Finally we get going, and I see a
van smashed and off the road, a cop car smashed, and another
car smashed. I had been stopped about 100 yards from some
sort of accident. The next day I checked the news. Four
sources, including a local ABC, a San Mateo paper, the
San Jose Mercury, and one other. They all diasgreed over
key points of the case. Was the women in the van killed
or flown to Stanford in critical? Was the cop car hit
or not (I happen to know it was)? How many vehicles were
involved? I thought: if it's this bad where I live and
work every day, how can I hope to learn a damn thing about
Israel? And how much less from a TV show about psychic
coincidences? Please.

My mother-in-law is into all this stuff, and she and the
people she consults with have yet to predict anything
correctly.

How can I indentify a legit pyschic, and what kind of
question can they reliably answer? Let me know and if
I can afford it I'll give it a shot. But in truth if
they could really do stuff like this, they wouldn't need
to charge me money at all -- they could make plenty of
their own, couldn't they?

-Carl

I dont know what to tell you Carl except cops are usually pretty hard-boiled
types and most of them scoff at psychics until one of them helps solve a
case that was stalled. Its one thing to have a telephone "psychic" tell you
for $4.99/hour that you will soon be changing jobs, and something totally
different when a psychic solves a case in the real world in a very concrete
way, guiding the police with very definite images and clues to look for a
body in a certain place and bang theres the body.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:52 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: tarot, psychics and voodoo mongers
>
>
>> ok i saw one recently: missing dude in Texas. Psychic
>> consulted by family member in Cali.
>
>Psychic also in Cali?
>
>> Psychic names small town in Texas and says "if you dont go
>> there right away you will never find out what happened to X".
>> Family memeber contacts relatives in Texas who promptly drive
>> to small town in middle of night. On road they pass their
>> missing relative's truck, being driven by the murderes,
>
>On the road to the town, or in the town?
>
>> Cops are gobsmacked.
>
>Nothing new there.
>
>> Calling it "intuition" instead of "psychic" is only a
>> semantic game attempting to defuse a bomb thrown at the
>> materialist worldview.
>
>I was coming home from work one rainy night early this year.
>Getting on the freeway, I was stopped on the ramp in the
>worst traffic jam I'd ever seen. After an hour people had
>turned off their cars. Finally we get going, and I see a
>van smashed and off the road, a cop car smashed, and another
>car smashed. I had been stopped about 100 yards from some
>sort of accident. The next day I checked the news. Four
>sources, including a local ABC, a San Mateo paper, the
>San Jose Mercury, and one other. They all diasgreed over
>key points of the case. Was the women in the van killed
>or flown to Stanford in critical? Was the cop car hit
>or not (I happen to know it was)? How many vehicles were
>involved? I thought: if it's this bad where I live and
>work every day, how can I hope to learn a damn thing about
>Israel? And how much less from a TV show about psychic
>coincidences? Please.
>
>My mother-in-law is into all this stuff, and she and the
>people she consults with have yet to predict anything
>correctly.
>
>How can I indentify a legit pyschic, and what kind of
>question can they reliably answer? Let me know and if
>I can afford it I'll give it a shot. But in truth if
>they could really do stuff like this, they wouldn't need
>to charge me money at all -- they could make plenty of
>their own, couldn't they?
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Cops are not exactly known for independent thinking. I'd be
willing to spend a few hundred on the test. But, like I said,
they could do much better on the stock market. Or the real
estate market. Or in just about anything, including preventing
murders. Couldn't they?

-Carl

> I dont know what to tell you Carl except cops are usually pretty
> hard-boiled types and most of them scoff at psychics until one of
> them helps solve a case that was stalled. Its one thing to have a
> telephone "psychic" tell you for $4.99/hour that you will soon be
> changing jobs, and something totally different when a psychic
> solves a case in the real world in a very concrete way, guiding
> the police with very definite images and clues to look for a
> body in a certain place and bang theres the body.

Sorry Carl but I cant parse what you're talking about here. Isn't it simple?
A person disappears, presumed murdered, the cops cant find the body. A
psychic is brought in, gives accurate info, the cops go to where the psychic
indicates, the body is found. Whats controversial here?

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:16 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: tarot, psychics and voodoo mongers
>
>
>Cops are not exactly known for independent thinking. I'd be
>willing to spend a few hundred on the test. But, like I said,
>they could do much better on the stock market. Or the real
>estate market. Or in just about anything, including preventing
>murders. Couldn't they?
>
>-Carl
>
>> I dont know what to tell you Carl except cops are usually pretty
>> hard-boiled types and most of them scoff at psychics until one of
>> them helps solve a case that was stalled. Its one thing to have a
>> telephone "psychic" tell you for $4.99/hour that you will soon be
>> changing jobs, and something totally different when a psychic
>> solves a case in the real world in a very concrete way, guiding
>> the police with very definite images and clues to look for a
>> body in a certain place and bang theres the body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:
>
>
> not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to desiring
the
> extirmination of cultures. you are not making careful distinctions
here, but
> sweeping knee-jerk statements, it seems. you make it appear as if
all
> scientists are part of an anti-third world cabal!
>

Not believing in them and aggressively attacking them are two very
different things. I don't have to believe in them to leave them
alone. And I strongly believe I've benefitted from the knowledge of
their best practitioners. Um, "artists", if you will.

And I find the argument that science is "value-neutral", or "non-
ideological" to be pure fantasy.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@a...> wrote:

> most scientific studies have either debunked, or found
inconclusive, the
> exisitence of such phenomenon.

There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being sold
as "debunking".

>
> when all is said and done, i think that these things, if they
exist, are
> natural phenomenon. i don't believe in the 'supernatural' in the
sense that i
> don't think nature contradicts itself: if it *can* happen, and
does, it's
> part of the 'laws of nature', and is thus 'natural'.

This seems entirely reasonable to me. I think 'supersensible' may
be a better word for it.

I've never been hustled by a "psychic", nor do I know anyone who
has. To me, it's like saying candy is dangerous. But you know
what? I'm VERY careful when I'm handling candy. ;-)

And I must say, calling someone (me?) a "voodoo monger" sounds kinda
calling them (me?) a ni- ...need I say more? You could trouble
yourself to read a little about Yoruba and vestigial Yoruba cultures
in the West Indies, perhaps?

"The Sheriff's a Ni-" --Mel Brooks, _Blazing Saddles_.

-Pete

On Monday 17 October 2005 10:27 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
>
> wrote:
> > not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to desiring
>
> the
>
> > extirmination of cultures. you are not making careful distinctions
>
> here, but
>
> > sweeping knee-jerk statements, it seems. you make it appear as if
>
> all
>
> > scientists are part of an anti-third world cabal!
>
> Not believing in them and aggressively attacking them are two very
> different things. I don't have to believe in them to leave them
> alone. And I strongly believe I've benefitted from the knowledge of
> their best practitioners. Um, "artists", if you will.

I'm not sure who you are talking about here--scientists or third world
cultures?

> And I find the argument that science is "value-neutral", or "non-
> ideological" to be pure fantasy.

science *does* value certain things: clarity, precision, truth, honesty. the
list goes on.

-Aaron.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:
> science *does* value certain things: clarity, precision, truth ...

"Vagueness is at times an indication of nearness to a perfect truth."
- Charles Ives, Essays Before a Sonata

Cheers,
Jon

On Monday 17 October 2005 10:45 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>
> <aaron@a...> wrote:
> > most scientific studies have either debunked, or found
>
> inconclusive, the
>
> > exisitence of such phenomenon.
>
> There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being sold
> as "debunking".
>
> > when all is said and done, i think that these things, if they
>
> exist, are
>
> > natural phenomenon. i don't believe in the 'supernatural' in the
>
> sense that i
>
> > don't think nature contradicts itself: if it *can* happen, and
>
> does, it's
>
> > part of the 'laws of nature', and is thus 'natural'.
>
> This seems entirely reasonable to me. I think 'supersensible' may
> be a better word for it.
>
> I've never been hustled by a "psychic", nor do I know anyone who
> has.

What does that prove? *I* do.. that's like saying rape or murder don't happen
because you don't know anyone who's been raped or murdered.

> To me, it's like saying candy is dangerous. But you know
> what? I'm VERY careful when I'm handling candy. ;-)
>
> And I must say, calling someone (me?) a "voodoo monger" sounds kinda
> calling them (me?) a ni- ...need I say more? You could trouble
> yourself to read a little about Yoruba and vestigial Yoruba cultures
> in the West Indies, perhaps?

huh? just because the words sound alike, doesn't make me inply that meaning at
all!

a monger is:

Monger \Mon"ger\, v. t.
To deal in; to make merchandise of; to traffic in; -- used
chiefly of discreditable traffic.
[1913 Webster]

> "The Sheriff's a Ni-" --Mel Brooks, _Blazing Saddles_.

c'mon Pete, you're playing the race card now? nothing I said in this thread
has been remotely racist, and now you are accusing me of racism.

this is getting to be a low lying discourse. let me know when you want to have
a real conversation on a real civil level.

-aaron.

> >> I dont know what to tell you Carl except cops are usually pretty
> >> hard-boiled types and most of them scoff at psychics until one of
> >> them helps solve a case that was stalled. Its one thing to have a
> >> telephone "psychic" tell you for $4.99/hour that you will soon be
> >> changing jobs, and something totally different when a psychic
> >> solves a case in the real world in a very concrete way, guiding
> >> the police with very definite images and clues to look for a
> >> body in a certain place and bang theres the body.

> >Cops are not exactly known for independent thinking. I'd be
> >willing to spend a few hundred on the test. But, like I said,
> >they could do much better on the stock market. Or the real
> >estate market. Or in just about anything, including preventing
> >murders. Couldn't they?

> Sorry Carl but I cant parse what you're talking about here. Isn't
> it simple? A person disappears, presumed murdered, the cops cant
> find the body. A psychic is brought in, gives accurate info, the
> cops go to where the psychic indicates, the body is found. Whats
> controversial here?

What's controversial is the accuracy of the story. Since even
news stories about easily-verified local events get horribly
distorted by mainstream sources, why should I trust your version
of a TV show about psychics' version of a news story?

What's also controversial is the availability of these psychics.
Can I hire one? How much does it cost? I want information I
can't get anything other way, and I'm willing to pay for it.
But why are they charging? They should all be rich already.

-Carl

> > most scientific studies have either debunked, or found
> > inconclusive, the exisitence of such phenomenon.
>
> There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being sold
> as "debunking".

What's debunking? Kraig's claiming psychic phenomena are
real. If instead they're inconclusive that's a big difference.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@a...> wrote:
>
> On Monday 17 October 2005 10:27 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@a...>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to
desiring
> >
> > the
> >
> > > extirmination of cultures.

You don't have to desire it to participate in it. Just parrot your
own virtues all over the place and it's done.

> >
> > Not believing in them and aggressively attacking them are two
very
> > different things. I don't have to believe in them to leave them
> > alone. And I strongly believe I've benefitted from the
knowledge of
> > their best practitioners. Um, "artists", if you will.
>
> I'm not sure who you are talking about here--scientists or third
world
> cultures?

"astrology and tarot", Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, [humanistic,et al]
Judaism, Buddhism, Hunduism, Shintoism, Candomble, Santeria,
Zoroastianism and Mazdism and Islam and Catholicism and Anabaptism
and Quakerism and astrosophy and anthroposophy, and the list goes
on.
>
> > And I find the argument that science is "value-neutral", or "non-
> > ideological" to be pure fantasy.
>
>
> science *does* value certain things: clarity, precision, truth,
honesty. the
> list goes on.

Explicitly it does, sure. So does every muckworm and myrmidon in
tinseltown, explicitly. So what? I'm sure that's what eg Monsanto
would LOVE for you to believe. And the oil companies in Ecuador,
etc., too.

I imagine that's what the physical anthropologists in German
colonial Africa were after, too. Now THAT was a marvel of clarity
and precision. It was only yesterday and it's still going on. But
today it's hardly even lamentable. It's "inevitable";
it's "globalization".

Pete

obviously they are real and inconclusive, like every other thing in science.
which i guess i am 'debunking:)

but one point i want to return to in this thread.
those who know about the subject would not causally group tarot and astrology.
astrology is the often rejected by those interested in the occult.
The tarot is based on the Cabala and if nothing else also acts as a great tool for comparing ideas in different systems.
Astrology though has some serious problems that it just refused to correct.
On is that where the planets are supposed to be are a ways off because of the precession of the equinox, so when they say that a planet is in a particular sign it is if you go out side and look, it will be in a different one.
if you rectify this and look at the attributes they don't work as well, so whatever phenomenon it is based on is not the stars,. the stars just functioned a s something that occurred at the same time as opposed to them being the cause.
there are some very interesting aspects of astrology.
One is the sabian symbols which are 360 images that came to a person in trace over a 2 or 3 year period.
the one for today ( i find them 3 days off and always read them this way) otherwise , i live 3 days in the future, being the laundry mat visionary that i am

A man in the midst of brightening influences

one last comment on astrology.
one of the methods most use is ancient time was the parts of fortunes or what are called the arabic parts, there is almost a hundred of these and they are harmonic points in ones chart that are activated by the motions of bodies over these.
These are for the most part completely unused.

possibly though Astrology would be much further if the scientist who control the paper of Keeper , let astrologers have access to a the over 200 books he wrote on the subject.
As you remember this was his job.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>>most scientific studies have either debunked, or found >>>inconclusive, the exisitence of such phenomenon.
>>> >>>
>>There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being sold >>as "debunking".
>> >>
>
>What's debunking? Kraig's claiming psychic phenomena are
>real. If instead they're inconclusive that's a big difference.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > > most scientific studies have either debunked, or found
> > > inconclusive, the exisitence of such phenomenon.
> >
> > There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being sold
> > as "debunking".
>
> What's debunking? Kraig's claiming psychic phenomena are
> real. If instead they're inconclusive that's a big difference.
>
> -Carl
>

I'm delighted that he's being taken seriously, if he is. I don't
feel inconclusive about it, myself, but I wish people like Carl
Sagan did. It's been my observation that debunking and
understanding usually proceed from entirely different motives.

I don't think you can blame astrology or whatever for telepsychics,
you can't blame religion for televangelists, and you can't blame
Madame Blavatsky (or Nietzche or Wagner, for that matter) for the
Nazis, to use an example from an apparently recent History Channel
program. That's the state of the art of "debunking" these days:
MORE disinformation. As I see it.

Pete

Really Pete, your attempts to make this conversation be
about colonialism are bizarre.

-Carl

> > > > most scientific studies have either debunked, or found
> > > > inconclusive, the exisitence of such phenomenon.
> > >
> > > There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being
> > > sold as "debunking".
> >
> > What's debunking? Kraig's claiming psychic phenomena are
> > real. If instead they're inconclusive that's a big difference.
>
> I'm delighted that he's being taken seriously, if he is. I don't
> feel inconclusive about it, myself, but I wish people like Carl
> Sagan did. It's been my observation that debunking and
> understanding usually proceed from entirely different motives.

I agree that famous debunkers are often overzealous. Feynman's
rhino horns, as I recently pointed out, for example.

> I don't think you can blame astrology or whatever for telepsychics,
> you can't blame religion for televangelists, and you can't blame
> Madame Blavatsky (or Nietzche or Wagner, for that matter) for the
> Nazis, to use an example from an apparently recent History Channel
> program. That's the state of the art of "debunking" these days:
> MORE disinformation. As I see it.

Agreed. I don't think I'm trying to do that. I'm asking where
I can find a real psychic.

History Channel... does EVERYONE on this list watch TV?

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@a...> wrote:
>
> >
> > > don't think nature contradicts itself: if it *can* happen, and
> >
> > does, it's
> >
> > > part of the 'laws of nature', and is thus 'natural'.
> >
> > This seems entirely reasonable to me. I think 'supersensible'
may
> > be a better word for it.
> >
> > I've never been hustled by a "psychic", nor do I know anyone who
> > has.
>
> What does that prove? *I* do.. that's like saying rape or murder
don't happen
> because you don't know anyone who's been raped or murdered.
>

I don't think it's like saying that, at all. To wit,

> > To me, it's like saying candy is dangerous. But you know
> > what? I'm VERY careful when I'm handling candy. ;-)

But, there you go, see. I'd just feel stupid if that happened to me.
How did it happen, if you can tell? I mean, I hope my hollerin
about 'foul' cuts both ways, that I'm not defending wiseguys that
steal, of any stripe!

> >

> > And I must say, calling someone (me?) a "voodoo monger" sounds
kinda
> > calling them (me?) a ni- ...need I say more? You could trouble
> > yourself to read a little about Yoruba and vestigial Yoruba
cultures
> > in the West Indies, perhaps?
>
> huh? just because the words sound alike, doesn't make me inply
that meaning at
> all!

In which case, I apologize. But I thought about that [below], and
decided I thought the suggestion was worth noting, given what I
thought was the tone and context of some remarks. It's NOT an
accusation at you. It's a mirror I turn on myself and the culture-
at-large. I'm sorry.

Pete

>
> a monger is:
>
> Monger \Mon"ger\, v. t.
> To deal in; to make merchandise of; to traffic in; -- used
> chiefly of discreditable traffic.
> [1913 Webster]
>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> Really Pete, your attempts to make this conversation be
> about colonialism are bizarre.
>
> -Carl
>

Noted.

> > Really Pete, your attempts to make this conversation be
> > about colonialism are bizarre.
>
> Noted.

Meanwhile, I'm having a blast with Toddle On Home and
the Centaur's Return Progress.

-C.

Pete,

your entire argument rests on confusing (ad-nauseum) some imperialistic
evildoings (drug companies, oil companies) with science proper. it's a bad
argument at best.

i'm getting tired of pointing that out, so i won't continue.

i'm curious to hear your new music, so that's what i'll do instead.

-aaron

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 2:04 am, ambassadorbob wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>
> <aaron@a...> wrote:
> > On Monday 17 October 2005 10:27 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> > > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>
> <aaron@a...>
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to
>
> desiring
>
> > > the
> > >
> > > > extirmination of cultures.
>
> You don't have to desire it to participate in it. Just parrot your
> own virtues all over the place and it's done.
>
> > > Not believing in them and aggressively attacking them are two
>
> very
>
> > > different things. I don't have to believe in them to leave them
> > > alone. And I strongly believe I've benefitted from the
>
> knowledge of
>
> > > their best practitioners. Um, "artists", if you will.
> >
> > I'm not sure who you are talking about here--scientists or third
>
> world
>
> > cultures?
>
> "astrology and tarot", Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, [humanistic,et al]
> Judaism, Buddhism, Hunduism, Shintoism, Candomble, Santeria,
> Zoroastianism and Mazdism and Islam and Catholicism and Anabaptism
> and Quakerism and astrosophy and anthroposophy, and the list goes
> on.
>
> > > And I find the argument that science is "value-neutral", or "non-
> > > ideological" to be pure fantasy.
> >
> > science *does* value certain things: clarity, precision, truth,
>
> honesty. the
>
> > list goes on.
>
> Explicitly it does, sure. So does every muckworm and myrmidon in
> tinseltown, explicitly. So what? I'm sure that's what eg Monsanto
> would LOVE for you to believe. And the oil companies in Ecuador,
> etc., too.
>
> I imagine that's what the physical anthropologists in German
> colonial Africa were after, too. Now THAT was a marvel of clarity
> and precision. It was only yesterday and it's still going on. But
> today it's hardly even lamentable. It's "inevitable";
> it's "globalization".
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

if one cannot separate commercial frauds with true psychics
why should we separate science from those who practice it.
if there is a demarcation in one, why not the other.
and iwill continue to hold theat the attitude of science toward art is imperialism.
that this subject persist on a list that hat discusses art is proof.
where is the discussion of art.
there is none probably because there is no real interest in it,
just in seeing how far we can take science into it

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>Pete,
>
>your entire argument rests on confusing (ad-nauseum) some imperialistic >evildoings (drug companies, oil companies) with science proper. it's a bad >argument at best.
>
>i'm getting tired of pointing that out, so i won't continue.
>
>i'm curious to hear your new music, so that's what i'll do instead.
>
>-aaron
>
>On Tuesday 18 October 2005 2:04 am, ambassadorbob wrote:
> >
>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>>
>><aaron@a...> wrote:
>> >>
>>>On Monday 17 October 2005 10:27 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
>>> >>>
>>>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>>>> >>>>
>><aaron@a...>
>>
>> >>
>>>>wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>>>not believing in astrology and tarot is not equivalent to
>>>>> >>>>>
>>desiring
>>
>> >>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>>>extirmination of cultures.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>You don't have to desire it to participate in it. Just parrot your
>>own virtues all over the place and it's done.
>>
>> >>
>>>>Not believing in them and aggressively attacking them are two
>>>> >>>>
>>very
>>
>> >>
>>>>different things. I don't have to believe in them to leave them
>>>>alone. And I strongly believe I've benefitted from the
>>>> >>>>
>>knowledge of
>>
>> >>
>>>>their best practitioners. Um, "artists", if you will.
>>>> >>>>
>>>I'm not sure who you are talking about here--scientists or third
>>> >>>
>>world
>>
>> >>
>>>cultures?
>>> >>>
>>"astrology and tarot", Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, [humanistic,et al]
>>Judaism, Buddhism, Hunduism, Shintoism, Candomble, Santeria,
>>Zoroastianism and Mazdism and Islam and Catholicism and Anabaptism
>>and Quakerism and astrosophy and anthroposophy, and the list goes
>>on.
>>
>> >>
>>>>And I find the argument that science is "value-neutral", or "non-
>>>>ideological" to be pure fantasy.
>>>> >>>>
>>>science *does* value certain things: clarity, precision, truth,
>>> >>>
>>honesty. the
>>
>> >>
>>>list goes on.
>>> >>>
>>Explicitly it does, sure. So does every muckworm and myrmidon in
>>tinseltown, explicitly. So what? I'm sure that's what eg Monsanto
>>would LOVE for you to believe. And the oil companies in Ecuador,
>>etc., too.
>>
>>I imagine that's what the physical anthropologists in German
>>colonial Africa were after, too. Now THAT was a marvel of clarity
>>and precision. It was only yesterday and it's still going on. But
>>today it's hardly even lamentable. It's "inevitable";
>>it's "globalization".
>>
>>Pete
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>>To post to the list, send to
>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

there are too many witch hunters out there for them to really show there faces too much.
unless one waned to be a rat in the scientist cage, or subject to public ridicule, why would they show themselves.
they don' t have to prove they exist to others

I thought the name of this was the Hitler Channel since it is he that seems to be on 24 hours a day.
his own TV channel

Carl Lumma wrote:

>
>
>Agreed. I don't think I'm trying to do that. I'm asking where
>I can find a real psychic.
>
>History Channel... does EVERYONE on this list watch TV?
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I am not sure i want to let Nietzche off the hook,
but Mademe Blavatsky?
sounds like fundementalist propaganda.

there is the story of the guy at the party who was poo pooing magic in front of her,
she commented that he wouldn't recognize magic if i happened right in front of him.
She raised a lit cigarette she did not have a minute before and he didn't notice, but others did.

remember the native american supposedly could not see Columbus boat,

any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arther C. Clarke

ambassadorbob wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >
>>>>most scientific studies have either debunked, or found >>>>inconclusive, the exisitence of such phenomenon.
>>>> >>>>
>>>There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being sold >>>as "debunking".
>>> >>>
>>What's debunking? Kraig's claiming psychic phenomena are
>>real. If instead they're inconclusive that's a big difference.
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>> >>
>
>I'm delighted that he's being taken seriously, if he is. I don't >feel inconclusive about it, myself, but I wish people like Carl >Sagan did. It's been my observation that debunking and >understanding usually proceed from entirely different motives.
>
>I don't think you can blame astrology or whatever for telepsychics, >you can't blame religion for televangelists, and you can't blame >Madame Blavatsky (or Nietzche or Wagner, for that matter) for the >Nazis, to use an example from an apparently recent History Channel >program. That's the state of the art of "debunking" these days: >MORE disinformation. As I see it. >
>Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 11:49 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> if one cannot separate commercial frauds with true psychics
> why should we separate science from those who practice it.

I suppose you are right. Personally, I never knew any 'true' psychics.

I will say my brother knew someone who had never been to our childhood house,
but described it in eerie precise detail, a case of remote seeing.

"I don't rule it out" is what I guess I'm saying. I also admit that science
knows a tiny insignificant fraction of the knowable.

At the same time, I defend science against anti-scientific propaganda.

Anyone on this list who would attack science, in order to be consistent, ought
to not benefit from its fruits:

1) never drive a car
2) never use electricity
3) never heat their home except through solar or wind power.
3a) actually I take that back, since solar and wind power are also bits of
technology. Just never heat your home, period. In fact, fire is primitive
technology, so don't use that, either.
4) never buy any product that was manufactured
5) never use a light bulb or light switch
6) never wear synthetic fabrics
7) never go to a doctor for surgery
8) never make an electronic recording of their music, or use electronic
musical instruments
9) never use any objects made of plastic
10) never turn on and/or use a computer

unfortunately, the so-called 'evil oil companies' are ones we in practice
depend on in our day to day lives for energy, including most of our
electricity. it's not an ideal situation, but just as science and technology
have provided the initial solution for energy which slowly became a problem,
they will provide the research and innovation that will supply a solution. it
just takes time, and a massive change in behavior on a global scale. the
answer is not to demonize the paradigm which is our salvation, and the answer
is not to be a sciento-phobe or a techno-phobe.

or, we can all revert to the year 1300 or prior, and let the black plague
descend upon us, and burn all witches and infidels at the stake.

> if there is a demarcation in one, why not the other.
> and iwill continue to hold theat the attitude of science toward art is
> imperialism.

if that is true, then i welcome it. i'm a pianist and an organist first. i
happily create art using the fruits of said imperialism (as do you---don't
you use tools to make instruments?).

> that this subject persist on a list that hat discusses art is proof.
> where is the discussion of art.
> there is none probably because there is no real interest in it,
> just in seeing how far we can take science into it

i'm very interested in art and all things artisitic....this thread started (as
i recall) when science was being unfairly attacked.

-aaron.

> there are too many witch hunters out there for them to really
> show there faces too much.
> unless one waned to be a rat in the scientist cage, or subject
> to public ridicule, why would they show themselves.

You just finished saying that since we 'cannot distinguish
fake psychics from real ones, why should I bother to distinguish
industrialism from science?'.
I've said how to distinguish industrialism from science. Now
I'm asking how to distinguish real and fake psychics.

> I thought the name of this was the Hitler Channel since it is
> he that seems to be on 24 hours a day.

There was a period of 3-4 years before I left home and after
cable became available where I lived. I watched the History
channel a few times then, and noticed this. Later when I
heard the joke, I thought it was perfect. Honestly, a show
about secret torture methods of the Nazi's?

-Carl

i said before, those that charge money you can bet are fakes, if they are sick physically, they are have more of a chance of being real

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>there are too many witch hunters out there for them to really
>>show there faces too much.
>> unless one waned to be a rat in the scientist cage, or subject
>>to public ridicule, why would they show themselves.
>> >>
>
>You just finished saying that since we 'cannot distinguish
>fake psychics from real ones, why should I bother to distinguish
>industrialism from science?'.
>I've said how to distinguish industrialism from science. Now
>I'm asking how to distinguish real and fake psychics.
>
> >
>> I thought the name of this was the Hitler Channel since it is
>>he that seems to be on 24 hours a day.
>> >>
>
>There was a period of 3-4 years before I left home and after
>cable became available where I lived. I watched the History
>channel a few times then, and noticed this. Later when I
>heard the joke, I thought it was perfect. Honestly, a show
>about secret torture methods of the Nazi's?
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@a...> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 18 October 2005 11:49 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> > if one cannot separate commercial frauds with true psychics
> > why should we separate science from those who practice it.
>
> I suppose you are right. Personally, I never knew any 'true'
psychics.
>
> I will say my brother knew someone who had never been to our
childhood house,
> but described it in eerie precise detail, a case of remote seeing.
>
> "I don't rule it out" is what I guess I'm saying. I also admit
that science
> knows a tiny insignificant fraction of the knowable.

Right on. Seriously.

> At the same time, I defend science against anti-scientific
propaganda.
>
> Anyone on this list who would attack science, in order to be
consistent, ought
> to not benefit from its fruits:

That's a neat little imperialist trick: convert, or die! It's
policy of the IMF and World Bank to withhold aid from states who
aren't overtly pursuing capitalist democracy. Not to mention the
National Security Strategy of 2002...

>
> 1) never drive a car
> 2) never use electricity
> 3) never heat their home except through solar or wind power.
> 3a) actually I take that back, since solar and wind power are also
bits of
> technology. Just never heat your home, period. In fact, fire is
primitive
> technology, so don't use that, either.
> 4) never buy any product that was manufactured
> 5) never use a light bulb or light switch
> 6) never wear synthetic fabrics
> 7) never go to a doctor for surgery
> 8) never make an electronic recording of their music, or use
electronic
> musical instruments
> 9) never use any objects made of plastic
> 10) never turn on and/or use a computer

There are a number of excellent ideas in here which absent hyperbole
ought to be pursued.

>
> unfortunately, the so-called 'evil oil companies' are ones we in
practice
> depend on in our day to day lives for energy, including most of
our
> electricity. it's not an ideal situation, but just as science and
technology
> have provided the initial solution for energy which slowly became
a problem,
> they will provide the research and innovation that will supply a
solution. it
> just takes time, and a massive change in behavior on a global
scale. the
> answer is not to demonize the paradigm which is our salvation, and
the answer
> is not to be a sciento-phobe or a techno-phobe.

Somebody help me out here? What's the George Carlin line about the
folly of expecting science to solve the problems it created? I'm
not a mud-brained misanthropic deep ecologist. It's just that I'm
acutely aware of my rather priveleged position in one (ie western
imperialist) world, and I'd rather not see the other one destroyed.
It's not inevitable.

> or, we can all revert to the year 1300 or prior, and let the black
plague
> descend upon us, and burn all witches and infidels at the stake.

The effect today is the same. Gather ye subharmonic flutes while ye
may...

> > if there is a demarcation in one, why not the other.
> > and iwill continue to hold theat the attitude of science
toward art is
> > imperialism.
>
> if that is true, then i welcome it.

I rest my case.

> i'm a pianist and an organist first. i
> happily create art using the fruits of said imperialism (as do you-
--don't
> you use tools to make instruments?).

I ambivalently create art using those tools, sometimes. I like my
toys, but I don't always like what made them possible.

>
> > that this subject persist on a list that hat discusses art is
proof.
> > where is the discussion of art.
> > there is none probably because there is no real interest in it,
> > just in seeing how far we can take science into it
>
> i'm very interested in art and all things artisitic....this thread
started (as
> i recall) when science was being unfairly attacked.

Fair is fair. You unfairly attacked belief systems that don't
square with your own.

Pete

ps I don't take ANY of this personally, either. If we agree to
disagree, I'm totally fine with that. It's interesting, in any case.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > > Really Pete, your attempts to make this conversation be
> > > about colonialism are bizarre.
> >
> > Noted.
>
> Meanwhile, I'm having a blast with Toddle On Home and
> the Centaur's Return Progress.
>
> -C.
>

Super cool, man. Thanks!

TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

ambassadorbob wrote:

>
>
>The effect today is the same. Gather ye subharmonic flutes while ye >may...
> > >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:

> "Science" is predicated on materialism, ie the objective reality of
the
> external world.

I'm sorry, folks, I'm way behind on this list, but as I scan around I
keep seeing these kinds of assertions here (as well as much more
disturbing ones which I won't go into).

These assertions are wrong! But I don't blame any of you: the public
is very poorly educated on science.

"Quantum physics has simply come to accept as a given over the years
that there does not seem to be an independent reality. Physics has
ceased questioning this, because experiments have confirmed it
repeatedly and with a growing accuracy."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051013084257.htm

Though there are many philosophers who continue to try to find ways
to reconcile quantum physics with the belief in an objective reality,
most physicists gave up on trying to do so quite some time ago. My
physics profs certainly had, and simply accepted that there was just
no way to separate reality or physical phenomena from the subjective
point of view, and influence, of the observer.

Quantum physics has been around for 75 years now, and most
scientists, being reductionists, believe that all physical phenomena
are, at their foundation, quantum.

So I must object that a severly outdated view of what science
is "predicated on" is being promulgated around here.

Popper wrote an interesting article 'on Clock and Clouds" on this . Ligeti liked this so much he named one of his best pieces after it.

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>
> >
>>"Science" is predicated on materialism, ie the objective reality of >> >>
>the
> >
>>external world.
>> >>
>
>I'm sorry, folks, I'm way behind on this list, but as I scan around I >keep seeing these kinds of assertions here (as well as much more >disturbing ones which I won't go into).
>
>These assertions are wrong! But I don't blame any of you: the public >is very poorly educated on science.
>
>"Quantum physics has simply come to accept as a given over the years >that there does not seem to be an independent reality. Physics has >ceased questioning this, because experiments have confirmed it >repeatedly and with a growing accuracy."
>
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051013084257.htm
>
>Though there are many philosophers who continue to try to find ways >to reconcile quantum physics with the belief in an objective reality, >most physicists gave up on trying to do so quite some time ago. My >physics profs certainly had, and simply accepted that there was just >no way to separate reality or physical phenomena from the subjective >point of view, and influence, of the observer.
>
>Quantum physics has been around for 75 years now, and most >scientists, being reductionists, believe that all physical phenomena >are, at their foundation, quantum.
>
>So I must object that a severly outdated view of what science >is "predicated on" is being promulgated around here.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Ok. I guess I'll wait until maybe I meet one.

-Carl

> i said before, those that charge money you can bet are fakes, if
> they are sick physically, they are have more of a chance of being
> real
>
> Carl Lumma wrote:
> >>there are too many witch hunters out there for them to really
> >>show there faces too much.
> >> unless one waned to be a rat in the scientist cage, or subject
> >>to public ridicule, why would they show themselves.

> Quantum physics has been around for 75 years now, and most
> scientists, being reductionists, believe that all physical
> phenomena are, at their foundation, quantum.

Some still believe in deterministic processes beneath that.

http://wolframscience.com/
http://www.digitalphysics.org/
http://www.digitalphilosophy.org/
http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/

> So I must object that a severly outdated view of what science
> is "predicated on" is being promulgated around here.

I'm not sure how you think QM bears on the discussion here.
Deutsch simply says phantom particles are real. Then, you
have stuff like...

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0105127

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?
prog=normal&id=PRLTAO000093000022220401000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

-Carl

Sorry Paul, I guess I was speaking of scientific materialism, which is still
the predominant worldview. Despite popularizations, the implications of
quantum theory (which are themselves far from settled) have not trickled
down to mass perception by a long shot. Probably some Buddhist or tribal
societies view the world in a more quantumized way than any western
societies.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Paul Erlich
>Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:52 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: artists/scientists
>
>
>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>
>> "Science" is predicated on materialism, ie the objective reality of
>the
>> external world.
>
>I'm sorry, folks, I'm way behind on this list, but as I scan around I
>keep seeing these kinds of assertions here (as well as much more
>disturbing ones which I won't go into).
>
>These assertions are wrong! But I don't blame any of you: the public
>is very poorly educated on science.
>
>"Quantum physics has simply come to accept as a given over the years
>that there does not seem to be an independent reality. Physics has
>ceased questioning this, because experiments have confirmed it
>repeatedly and with a growing accuracy."
>
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051013084257.htm
>
>Though there are many philosophers who continue to try to find ways
>to reconcile quantum physics with the belief in an objective reality,
>most physicists gave up on trying to do so quite some time ago. My
>physics profs certainly had, and simply accepted that there was just
>no way to separate reality or physical phenomena from the subjective
>point of view, and influence, of the observer.
>
>Quantum physics has been around for 75 years now, and most
>scientists, being reductionists, believe that all physical phenomena
>are, at their foundation, quantum.
>
>So I must object that a severly outdated view of what science
>is "predicated on" is being promulgated around here.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > 1) never drive a car
> > 2) never use electricity
> > 3) never heat their home except through solar or wind power.
> > 3a) actually I take that back, since solar and wind power are
> > also bits of technology. Just never heat your home, period.
> > In fact, fire is primitive technology, so don't use that,
> > either.
> > 4) never buy any product that was manufactured
> > 5) never use a light bulb or light switch
> > 6) never wear synthetic fabrics
> > 7) never go to a doctor for surgery
> > 8) never make an electronic recording of their music, or use
> > electronic musical instruments
> > 9) never use any objects made of plastic
> > 10) never turn on and/or use a computer
>
> There are a number of excellent ideas in here which absent
> hyperbole ought to be pursued.

#6 right now. #1 if things were different.

> Somebody help me out here? What's the George Carlin line about
> the folly of expecting science to solve the problems it created?

Science doesn't create these problems, or solve them. "Problems"
are a result of human psychology and social order, and are
largely homeostatic wrt technology. Technology raises the stakes
is all. You can eliminate epidemics with vaccines or by living
less densely. Science doesn't tell you which to choose.

One possible break point in the homeostasis is the arrival of
AI. Let's say we learn to make machines capable of doing
anything a human can do. And they can reproduce themselves,
and share knowledge with a download (instead of 18 years of
expensive education). And they're designed to get off on
doing whatever we say. It makes them really happy, so there's
no worries about enslaving them. Finally let's say they're
designed to be incurably phobic of physical violence. In such
a case, nobody would ever have to do anything they didn't want.
Money would be irrelevant, poverty would be nonexistent.
Maybe we'd still yell at eachother...

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:

> On Friday 14 October 2005 9:56 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
> >
> > <aaron@a...> wrote:
> > > man is a pattern seeking animal. humans are so good
> > > at seeking out patterns, we will see them even when
> > > they are not there; hence astrology and tarot.
> >
> >
> > That's a pat answer, in the worst sense.
> >
> > Are you sure they're not there? I'm sure you don't
> > see them. But I'm not sure I don't. And some folks
> > I have a lot of admiration for DO see them, at least
> > enough to give me pause.
>
> re: astrology, i'm certain that there are not only 12
> types of people in the world.

12-ism is something that has permeated much of human
culture, from a long time ago.

Ancient people saw a big connection between music and
the cosmos. I'm so fascinated with this that i formed
a whole Yahoo group for it:

/celestial-tuning/

There's the possibility that there is a connection
between the 12-month year and 12-tone scales, besides
just the number 12.

> i'm also certain that at the time of my birth, the layout
> of stars all thousands or millions of light years away
> from earth and each other had an insignificant, to be
> generous, effect on me. have you ever considered that
> the very idea of a constellation is not even universal
> culture to culture? a constellation is a shape we see and
> put upon something that is not really 'there'.

As you said, Aaron, humans are pattern-seeking creatures.
We will see -- or impose -- patterns wherever we can find
them.

I see nothing inherently wrong with that ... after all,
pattern manipulation and recognition is one of the things
that makes much music enjoyable.

There's very little great music that has no kind of
periodicity -- Schoenberg's _Erwartung_ (in which the
composer *deliberately* eschewed any kind of repetition
for the sake of achieving "stream of consciousness",
to fantastic success IMO) is perhaps the only example
i can think of.

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:

> i will say i'm pretty much a believer in ghosts. i go
> back and forth about it, but i've had some strange
> experiences myself in relation to a place's 'eneregy'
> or 'vibe' as they say.

I was always skeptical but open-minded about ghosts,
until one day when i saw *and heard* a chair move all
by itself. (That's important, because i always trust
my ears more than my eyes.)

I think i've told this story on this list before, so
i won't go into it now. Suffice to say that i was not
stoned, drunk, or tired, and my girlfriend also saw
it happen.

I have no way to explain it, but it certainly changed my
view of the universe, which i now know is far more weird
than i ever imagined.

-monz

Hi Aaron and Pete,

I'm splitting this off as a separate thread, as i believe
that voodoo does not really deserve to be lumped in together
with tarot and psychics ... it's a religion, and something
quite different from those other "spiritualist" practices.
(I will admit, however, that i know a lot less about those
other things than about voodoo.)

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <peteysan@s...> wrote:

> And I must say, calling someone (me?) a "voodoo monger"
> sounds kinda calling them (me?) a ni- ...need I say more?
> You could trouble yourself to read a little about Yoruba
> and vestigial Yoruba cultures in the West Indies, perhaps?

Voodoo is just as valid (or invalid, if you prefer) as
any other religion. It's an integral part of many African
cultures, not just Yoruba, and also of cultures in the
western hemisphere which were the recipient of millions
of African slaves -- places ranging from Brazil to Haiti
to Cuba to Puerto Rico to the former New Orleans.

(I use the term "former New Orleans" because whatever
Halliburton is going to remake the place into, it ain't
never gonna be what it once was. I heard yesterday on
Air America Radio -- the only radio news i trust -- that
40% of the evacuees said that they will *never* return.)

In fact the form of voodoo that is most prevalent today,
and the term "vodun" itself, comes from the Fon and Ewe
culture of the former Kingdom of Dahomey, now the nation
of Benin in West Africa. (just west of the Yoruba of
Nigeria)

A while back i had a friend who was studying to be a
voodoo priest, and i went to one of the services. It
was an amazing experience.

Africans always know how to take something to an extreme:
for those of you who think it's nice to be able to
get a little sip of wine at some Christian services,
let me tell you -- there's nothing like being forced
to guzzle a whole bottle of grain alcohol with hot chili
peppers in it! But it's all part of the ritual. Between
that and the relentless drumming, it's easy to get whipped
up into a frenzy, which is the whole point of the exercise:
to conjure up the Loa (spirits), who can give you guidance
and healing.

The "black magic" aspect basically derives from the
voodoo prevalent in New Orleans about 100 years ago.
Typically, Hollywood played that up in the movies,
and today that's what most people ignorant of the
real history and meaning of voodoo associate with it.

I thought that it would be a good idea to post links
to informative webpages for folks here who might want
to learn more about voodoo.

Here's one which gives a good history:
http://www.omplace.com/articles/Voodoo_History.html

Here are some other useful links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo
http://www.vudutuu.com/vuduhistory.html
http://www.paralumun.com/voodoohist.htm

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> I thought the name of this was the Hitler Channel since
> it is he that seems to be on 24 hours a day.
> his own TV channel
>
> Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
> > History Channel... does EVERYONE on this list watch TV?

Kraig, i'm so glad to see you write that.

I hardly ever watch TV, and when i do, i generally
to see a movie. (my roommates and i have pay for about
900 channels on cable, so i might as well use it once
in a while ...)

But when i'm channel-surfing looking for a good movie,
whevener i pass the so-called "History" channels, i
invariably see black-and-white tanks and airplanes in
what is obviously World War 2 footage. Really, it does
seem that Hitler has a never-ending presence on TV.

Which kind of makes sense, given the way America is
going these days ...

-monz

yo monz,

Great idea, thanks for the links! I haven't checked 'em yet, but
looking forward...

I made a friend recently who's a bata drummer and doctoral candidate
at Wesleyan, so I've been doing a fair amount of looking into it,
both as a musical and religious wellspring. Fiercely polyrhythmic
when they get goin', too. Still, as ceremonial, it has a stately
order to it that the 'frenzy' of accounts of possession obscures,
sometimes. ...I think, I'm NOT an expert. But my friend seemed to
think it was important to note that strange austerity, at least in
Santeria.

The Cuban drumming tradition is incredible, and the ties to jazz and
popular Latin music...really tons of fun! And, incidentally,
there's a new crop of Cuban musicians who are staggeringly good,
with all kinds of conservatory training AND stuff, that they can
just tear it up! Check out Dafnis Prieto, for one...

http://www.dafnisprieto.com

But as religious practice it's also quite deep and intriguing.
The 'syncretism' of Santeria, whether just to fool the masters or as
a theological challenge of its own, is something I'm interested in
as a recovered Catholic ;-), but I haven't gotten very far, yet.
And the original [eg Yoruba] mythology is as intricate and dignified
as any I've run across.

There's a very fine recent scholarly work, _Santeria Enthroned_, by
David M. Brown, that I haven't really had time for. What I did read
I thought was amazingly good.

pardon if you knew all that,

P

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> Hi Aaron and Pete,
>
>
> I thought that it would be a good idea to post links
> to informative webpages for folks here who might want
> to learn more about voodoo.
>
> Here's one which gives a good history:
> http://www.omplace.com/articles/Voodoo_History.html
>
> Here are some other useful links:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo
> http://www.vudutuu.com/vuduhistory.html
> http://www.paralumun.com/voodoohist.htm
>
>
>
> -monz
>

Did you guys see _Downfall_, the recent film with Bruno Ganz as AH?

Probably a good antidote to that weird sort of documentary
nostalgia, AND to place the 'blame' squarely where it belongs.

Not a happy movie, NO!, but wonderfully human, I thought.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> > I thought the name of this was the Hitler Channel since
> > it is he that seems to be on 24 hours a day.
> > his own TV channel
> >
> > Carl Lumma wrote:
> > >
> > > History Channel... does EVERYONE on this list watch TV?
>
>
> Kraig, i'm so glad to see you write that.
>
> I hardly ever watch TV, and when i do, i generally
> to see a movie. (my roommates and i have pay for about
> 900 channels on cable, so i might as well use it once
> in a while ...)
>
> But when i'm channel-surfing looking for a good movie,
> whevener i pass the so-called "History" channels, i
> invariably see black-and-white tanks and airplanes in
> what is obviously World War 2 footage. Really, it does
> seem that Hitler has a never-ending presence on TV.
>
> Which kind of makes sense, given the way America is
> going these days ...
>
>
>
> -monz
>

Harold Courlander, whose african story he had collected was used by partch in delusion, wrote an excellent book on voodoo called the "the drum and the hoe" , the first author on it being in Haiti as the same time as Maya Deren. Some of his recordings came out from the smithsonian ( he was also editor in chief at folk ways briefly) .the book has notated examples of the music.
i highly recommend all his books.
It appears that Roots had lifted 6 chapters of another book of his that he was later awarded quite a bit for

monz wrote:

>Hi Aaron and Pete,
>
>
>I'm splitting this off as a separate thread, as i believe
>that voodoo does not really deserve to be lumped in together
>with tarot and psychics ... it's a religion, and something
>quite different from those other "spiritualist" practices.
>(I will admit, however, that i know a lot less about those
>other things than about voodoo.)
>
>
>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <peteysan@s...> wrote:
>
> >
>>And I must say, calling someone (me?) a "voodoo monger"
>>sounds kinda calling them (me?) a ni- ...need I say more?
>>You could trouble yourself to read a little about Yoruba
>>and vestigial Yoruba cultures in the West Indies, perhaps?
>> >>
>
>
>Voodoo is just as valid (or invalid, if you prefer) as
>any other religion. It's an integral part of many African
>cultures, not just Yoruba, and also of cultures in the
>western hemisphere which were the recipient of millions
>of African slaves -- places ranging from Brazil to Haiti
>to Cuba to Puerto Rico to the former New Orleans. >
>(I use the term "former New Orleans" because whatever
>Halliburton is going to remake the place into, it ain't
>never gonna be what it once was. I heard yesterday on >Air America Radio -- the only radio news i trust -- that
>40% of the evacuees said that they will *never* return.)
>
>In fact the form of voodoo that is most prevalent today,
>and the term "vodun" itself, comes from the Fon and Ewe
>culture of the former Kingdom of Dahomey, now the nation
>of Benin in West Africa. (just west of the Yoruba of
>Nigeria)
>
>
>
>A while back i had a friend who was studying to be a >voodoo priest, and i went to one of the services. It
>was an amazing experience.
>
>Africans always know how to take something to an extreme:
>for those of you who think it's nice to be able to
>get a little sip of wine at some Christian services,
>let me tell you -- there's nothing like being forced
>to guzzle a whole bottle of grain alcohol with hot chili
>peppers in it! But it's all part of the ritual. Between
>that and the relentless drumming, it's easy to get whipped
>up into a frenzy, which is the whole point of the exercise:
>to conjure up the Loa (spirits), who can give you guidance
>and healing.
>
>The "black magic" aspect basically derives from the
>voodoo prevalent in New Orleans about 100 years ago.
>Typically, Hollywood played that up in the movies,
>and today that's what most people ignorant of the
>real history and meaning of voodoo associate with it.
>
>
>I thought that it would be a good idea to post links
>to informative webpages for folks here who might want
>to learn more about voodoo.
>
>Here's one which gives a good history:
>http://www.omplace.com/articles/Voodoo_History.html
>
>Here are some other useful links:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo
>http://www.vudutuu.com/vuduhistory.html
>http://www.paralumun.com/voodoohist.htm
>
>
>
>-monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 3:21 pm, ambassadorbob wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
>
> <aaron@a...> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 18 October 2005 11:49 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> > > if one cannot separate commercial frauds with true psychics
> > > why should we separate science from those who practice it.
> >

> > aaron:
> > I suppose you are right. Personally, I never knew any 'true' psychics.
> > I will say my brother knew someone who had never been to our childhood
> > house,
> > but described it in eerie precise detail, a case of remote seeing.
> > "I don't rule it out" is what I guess I'm saying. I also admit that
science
> > knows a tiny insignificant fraction of the knowable.
>
> Right on. Seriously.
>
> > At the same time, I defend science against anti-scientific
>
> propaganda.
>
> > Anyone on this list who would attack science, in order to be
>
> consistent, ought
>
> > to not benefit from its fruits:
>
> That's a neat little imperialist trick: convert, or die!

whatever.

> It's
> policy of the IMF and World Bank to withhold aid from states who
> aren't overtly pursuing capitalist democracy. Not to mention the
> National Security Strategy of 2002...

I don't think the world bank *should* pay out to countries that don't pursue
democracy. The alternatives to democracy are dictatorships or theocracies.

It's like bemoaning a private donor's choice of where to put their money: if
you had lots of money and believed as you do in 'free speech', you wouldn't
give to a play that was politically right of you, just as the donors don't
give to plays that are politically left of them.

I think that that is perfectly fair and reasonable. And it's not fascists or
some other such nonsense.

Incidentally, I don't believe that the National Endowment for the Arts works
for anything but the most incontroversial and universal art, if at all, for
the same reasons. Private funding remains the most effective means for
artists to stage their works.

> > 1) never drive a car
> > 2) never use electricity
> > 3) never heat their home except through solar or wind power.
> > 3a) actually I take that back, since solar and wind power are also
>
> bits of
>
> > technology. Just never heat your home, period. In fact, fire is
>
> primitive
>
> > technology, so don't use that, either.
> > 4) never buy any product that was manufactured
> > 5) never use a light bulb or light switch
> > 6) never wear synthetic fabrics
> > 7) never go to a doctor for surgery
> > 8) never make an electronic recording of their music, or use
>
> electronic
>
> > musical instruments
> > 9) never use any objects made of plastic
> > 10) never turn on and/or use a computer
>
> There are a number of excellent ideas in here which absent hyperbole
> ought to be pursued.

hmmm....I'm waiting to see which ones you will actually pursue. I suspect you
are not really taking your own 'science is imperialism' idea too seriously.

>> aaron:
> > unfortunately, the so-called 'evil oil companies' are ones we in practice
depend on in our day to day lives for energy, including most of our
electricity. it's not an ideal situation, but just as science and technology
have provided the initial solution for energy which slowly became a problem,
they will provide the research and innovation that will supply a solution. it
just takes time, and a massive change in behavior on a global scale. the
answer is not to demonize the paradigm which is our salvation, and the answer
is not to be a sciento-phobe or a techno-phobe.

>> ambassadorbob:
> Somebody help me out here? What's the George Carlin line about the
> folly of expecting science to solve the problems it created? I'm
> not a mud-brained misanthropic deep ecologist. It's just that I'm
> acutely aware of my rather priveleged position in one (ie western
> imperialist) world, and I'd rather not see the other one destroyed.
> It's not inevitable.

Gearge Carlin is funny, and I love him, but here I disagree. And I don't think
science 'created' the problems. I think human ignorance and greed created
them.

> > or, we can all revert to the year 1300 or prior, and let the black
>
> plague
>
> > descend upon us, and burn all witches and infidels at the stake.
>
> The effect today is the same. Gather ye subharmonic flutes while ye
> may...

No, the effect to day is that you can shit in a toilet instead of a trench
(like in China) where you can get a disease.

I forgot to mention, you shouldn't use toilets if you are
anti-science/technology.

> > > if there is a demarcation in one, why not the other.
> > > and iwill continue to hold theat the attitude of science
>
> toward art is
>
> > > imperialism.
> >
> > if that is true, then i welcome it.
>
> I rest my case.

Ok. Ok. I'm an 'evil white imperialist'. Have it your way.

In the meantime, please reflect on how the largest massacre/genocide going on
is intra-racial (in Darfour), not inter-racial.

> > i'm a pianist and an organist first. i
> > happily create art using the fruits of said imperialism (as do you-
>
> --don't
>
> > you use tools to make instruments?).
>
> I ambivalently create art using those tools, sometimes. I like my
> toys, but I don't always like what made them possible.

I rest my case that you are not a man who takes your own ideas very seriously.

> ps I don't take ANY of this personally, either. If we agree to
> disagree, I'm totally fine with that. It's interesting, in any case.

me too...and I agree to disagree.

ps....I still have yet to listen to you latest work. I'm excited to though, I
really enjoyed your last stuff.

-Aaron.

Hi Pete,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <peteysan@s...> wrote:

> I made a friend recently who's a bata drummer and
> doctoral candidate at Wesleyan, so I've been doing a
> fair amount of looking into it, both as a musical and
> religious wellspring. Fiercely polyrhythmic when they
> get goin', too.

Oh yes! That polyrhythmic drumming is one of the main
reasons why i wanted to attend the ceremony i went to.

> Still, as ceremonial, it has a stately order to it that
> the 'frenzy' of accounts of possession obscures, sometimes.
> ...I think, I'm NOT an expert. But my friend seemed to
> think it was important to note that strange austerity,
> at least in Santeria.

Yes, you're right. It's there in the more "pure"
African/Haitian versions too. I guess i should have
mentioned that the ceremony i attended started around
8:00pm and went on until at least 4:00 in the morning.
So it's nothing like your typical 1-hour Christian service.
There were *several hours* of "stately order" before the
really wild stuff began.

> pardon if you knew all that,

Not at all! Thanks for posting the additional info.
I know much more about "regular" voodoo in its African
and Haitian forms, and only a little about Santeria.

-monz

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

> I don't think the world bank *should* pay out to countries that don't > pursue
>
>democracy. The alternatives to democracy are dictatorships or theocracies.
> >
It sure hasn't stop them from their relationship with China. the issue has never been democracy, but open market and capitalism. but we are digressing

>It's like bemoaning a private donor's choice of where to put their money: if >you had lots of money and believed as you do in 'free speech', you wouldn't >give to a play that was politically right of you, just as the donors don't >give to plays that are politically left of them.
>
>I think that that is perfectly fair and reasonable. And it's not fascists or >some other such nonsense.
>
>Incidentally, I don't believe that the National Endowment for the Arts works >for anything but the most incontroversial and universal art, if at all, for >the same reasons. Private funding remains the most effective means for >artists to stage their works.
> >
there is no such thing as private funding for music at this point though.
People who are interested in the arts tend to go for objects that also function as an investment, knowing that ifthey ever need a tax right off they can 'donate' to a museum, or if lesser quality , they can always resale it.
there is and was only one Betty Freeman.
but even on a micro level the tuning community does little of nothing to support its own field.
It is the arena in which i sale the least amount of CDs by far.
Along these lines , it is my understanding the new albion records is now longer functioning outside of their existing catalog.
the general situation for all adventursome music is that artist who would sell maybe 7-8,000 are now selling less than 10% of this. big names too.
So this is what downloading has done in fact., lessened the quality of sound and
wipe out everybody than the big boys.

I went and saw Stephano Scaribbio, being probably the greatest bass player alive, At LACMA. even they are discontinuting the monday evening concerts after 50 years, a series started by Stravinsky. This is one of the world's best known new music series.

I went not only because i find him one of the most phenomenal players living ( his CD is unfortunately doesn't work at all, even loving him, i traded it in) but because , as far as i can tell, i will not get another chance to see him in my lifetime. and i hostesly believe that is a real possibility.

Talk about microtones, here is a man that cannot only really kick ass on bowing harmonics up into the 20's but can pluck them also using both hands.

a program of Scelsi music live , music a recording doesn't really capture either.
Frances-Marie Uitti, cello
a cellist who at times uses 2 bows one above and one below, in a category by herself did half this Scelsi program and caught her improvising at another spot last night, in a much too small venue, but with an audience that did not walk out the way they came in.
who will pay to bring them here again

>
> >
>>>1) never drive a car
>>>2) never use electricity
>>>3) never heat their home except through solar or wind power.
>>>3a) actually I take that back, since solar and wind power are also
>>> >>>
>>bits of
>>
>> >>
>>>technology. Just never heat your home, period. In fact, fire is
>>> >>>
>>primitive
>>
>> >>
>>>technology, so don't use that, either.
>>>4) never buy any product that was manufactured
>>>5) never use a light bulb or light switch
>>>6) never wear synthetic fabrics
>>>7) never go to a doctor for surgery
>>>8) never make an electronic recording of their music, or use
>>> >>>
>>electronic
>>
>> >>
>>>musical instruments
>>>9) never use any objects made of plastic
>>>10) never turn on and/or use a computer
>>> >>>
>>There are a number of excellent ideas in here which absent hyperbole
>>ought to be pursued.
>> >>
>
>hmmm....I'm waiting to see which ones you will actually pursue. I suspect you >are not really taking your own 'science is imperialism' idea too seriously.
>
> >
>>>aaron:
>>>unfortunately, the so-called 'evil oil companies' are ones we in practice >>> >>>
>depend on in our day to day lives for energy, including most of our >electricity. it's not an ideal situation, but just as science and technology >have provided the initial solution for energy which slowly became a problem, >they will provide the research and innovation that will supply a solution. it >just takes time, and a massive change in behavior on a global scale. the >answer is not to demonize the paradigm which is our salvation, and the answer >is not to be a sciento-phobe or a techno-phobe. >
> >
>>>ambassadorbob:
>>> >>>
>>Somebody help me out here? What's the George Carlin line about the
>> folly of expecting science to solve the problems it created? I'm
>>not a mud-brained misanthropic deep ecologist. It's just that I'm
>>acutely aware of my rather priveleged position in one (ie western
>>imperialist) world, and I'd rather not see the other one destroyed.
>>It's not inevitable.
>> >>
>
>Gearge Carlin is funny, and I love him, but here I disagree. And I don't think >science 'created' the problems. I think human ignorance and greed created >them.
>
> >
>>>or, we can all revert to the year 1300 or prior, and let the black
>>> >>>
>>plague
>>
>> >>
>>>descend upon us, and burn all witches and infidels at the stake.
>>> >>>
>>The effect today is the same. Gather ye subharmonic flutes while ye
>>may...
>> >>
>
>No, the effect to day is that you can shit in a toilet instead of a trench >(like in China) where you can get a disease.
>
>I forgot to mention, you shouldn't use toilets if you are >anti-science/technology.
>
> >
>>>> if there is a demarcation in one, why not the other.
>>>> and iwill continue to hold theat the attitude of science
>>>> >>>>
>>toward art is
>>
>> >>
>>>>imperialism.
>>>> >>>>
>>>if that is true, then i welcome it.
>>> >>>
>>I rest my case.
>> >>
>
>Ok. Ok. I'm an 'evil white imperialist'. Have it your way.
>
>In the meantime, please reflect on how the largest massacre/genocide going on >is intra-racial (in Darfour), not inter-racial.
>
> >
>>>i'm a pianist and an organist first. i
>>>happily create art using the fruits of said imperialism (as do you-
>>> >>>
>>--don't
>>
>> >>
>>>you use tools to make instruments?).
>>> >>>
>>I ambivalently create art using those tools, sometimes. I like my
>>toys, but I don't always like what made them possible.
>> >>
>
>I rest my case that you are not a man who takes your own ideas very seriously.
>
>
> >
>>ps I don't take ANY of this personally, either. If we agree to
>>disagree, I'm totally fine with that. It's interesting, in any case.
>> >>
>
>me too...and I agree to disagree.
>
>ps....I still have yet to listen to you latest work. I'm excited to though, I >really enjoyed your last stuff.
>
>-Aaron.
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Wednesday 19 October 2005 11:37 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > I don't think the world bank *should* pay out to countries that don't
> > pursue
> >
> >democracy. The alternatives to democracy are dictatorships or theocracies.
>
> It sure hasn't stop them from their relationship with China. the issue
> has never been democracy, but open market and capitalism. but we are
> digressing

yes, you are right in your observation. the u.s. is hypocritical in this
regard.

no argument from me here. but that is more of an issue of who's in power at
present.

also, capitalism is a double-edged sword.

> >It's like bemoaning a private donor's choice of where to put their money:
> > if you had lots of money and believed as you do in 'free speech', you
> > wouldn't give to a play that was politically right of you, just as the
> > donors don't give to plays that are politically left of them.
> >
> >I think that that is perfectly fair and reasonable. And it's not fascists
> > or some other such nonsense.
> >
> >Incidentally, I don't believe that the National Endowment for the Arts
> > works for anything but the most incontroversial and universal art, if at
> > all, for the same reasons. Private funding remains the most effective
> > means for artists to stage their works.
>
> there is no such thing as private funding for music at this point though.
> People who are interested in the arts tend to go for objects that also
> function as an investment, knowing that ifthey ever need a tax right off
> they can 'donate' to a museum, or if lesser quality , they can always
> resale it.
> there is and was only one Betty Freeman.
> but even on a micro level the tuning community does little of nothing
> to support its own field.
> It is the arena in which i sale the least amount of CDs by far.

i suspect this has alot to do with the expectation from everyone for 'free
music' in the form of downloadable mp3's, which is why i'm torn on the issue.

as a user, free music is great, as an artist, it hurts your bottom line.

> Along these lines , it is my understanding the new albion records is now
> longer functioning outside of their existing catalog.
> the general situation for all adventursome music is that artist who
> would sell maybe 7-8,000 are now selling less than 10% of this. big
> names too.
> So this is what downloading has done in fact., lessened the quality of
> sound and
> wipe out everybody than the big boys.
>
> I went and saw Stephano Scaribbio, being probably the greatest bass
> player alive, At LACMA. even they are discontinuting the monday evening
> concerts after 50 years, a series started by Stravinsky. This is one of
> the world's best known new music series.
>
> I went not only because i find him one of the most phenomenal players
> living ( his CD is unfortunately doesn't work at all, even loving him, i
> traded it in) but because , as far as i can tell, i will not get another
> chance to see him in my lifetime. and i hostesly believe that is a real
> possibility.
>
> Talk about microtones, here is a man that cannot only really kick ass on
> bowing harmonics up into the 20's but can pluck them also using both hands.
>
> a program of Scelsi music live , music a recording doesn't really
> capture either.
> Frances-Marie Uitti, cello
> a cellist who at times uses 2 bows one above and one below, in a
> category by herself did half this Scelsi program and caught her
> improvising at another spot last night, in a much too small venue, but
> with an audience that did not walk out the way they came in.
> who will pay to bring them here again

yes, things do look bad, unfortunately.

that's why i'm trying to start a festival.

-aaron.

> Did you guys see _Downfall_, the recent film with Bruno Ganz as AH?
>
> Probably a good antidote to that weird sort of documentary
> nostalgia, AND to place the 'blame' squarely where it belongs.
>
> Not a happy movie, NO!, but wonderfully human, I thought.

Do NOT eat with your uncle herb before attempting to watch this
film.

-Carl

> No, the effect to day is that you can shit in a toilet instead
> of a trench (like in China) where you can get a disease.

As it happens, I was just arguing on this list that trenches
are far superior to toilets.

> I forgot to mention, you shouldn't use toilets if you are
> anti-science/technology.

I think toilets are among the most primitive shitting
technologies around.

-Carl

> Along these lines , it is my understanding the new albion
> records is now longer functioning outside of their existing
> catalog.

If they had a shred of customer service ethic maybe their
business would do better. I tried to spend hundreds of
dollars on a direct order (and they're right across the Bay)
and it was a nightmare. There's obviously not very much
cooperation among the staff.

> I went and saw Stephano Scaribbio, being probably the greatest
> bass player alive, At LACMA. even they are discontinuting the
> monday evening concerts after 50 years, a series started by
> Stravinsky. This is one of the world's best known new music
> series.

I couldn't find him on the web. Google suggests
"Stefano Scarabeo", but I don't see anything about a bass
player.

-Carl

the most unfortunate part of this is that only those from a privilege class will be able to do an sustain it.
although in large part, this is already the case.

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>
>
>i suspect this has alot to do with the expectation from everyone for 'free >music' in the form of downloadable mp3's, which is why i'm torn on the issue.
>
>as a user, free music is great, as an artist, it hurts your bottom line.
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Stefano Scodanibbio, i had thought i had cut and pasted his name but it hadn't take,
actually i think you are lucky cause i remember hearing he was going to be up at mills for a while

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>Along these lines , it is my understanding the new albion
>>records is now longer functioning outside of their existing
>>catalog.
>> >>
>
>If they had a shred of customer service ethic maybe their
>business would do better. I tried to spend hundreds of
>dollars on a direct order (and they're right across the Bay)
>and it was a nightmare. There's obviously not very much
>cooperation among the staff.
>
> >
>>I went and saw Stephano Scaribbio, being probably the greatest
>>bass player alive, At LACMA. even they are discontinuting the
>>monday evening concerts after 50 years, a series started by
>>Stravinsky. This is one of the world's best known new music
>>series.
>> >>
>
>I couldn't find him on the web. Google suggests
>"Stefano Scarabeo", but I don't see anything about a bass
>player.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

> No, the effect to day is that you can shit in a toilet instead of a trench > (like in China) where you can get a disease.

Hey, what's wrong with shitting in trenches? It didn't do me any harm.

And, while I'm here.

> In the meantime, please reflect on how the largest massacre/genocide going on > is intra-racial (in Darfour), not inter-racial.

I don't think that's true. Just because they all have dark skin doesn't make them the same race.

Graham

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>Along these lines , it is my understanding the new albion
>>records is now longer functioning outside of their existing
>>catalog.
>> >>
>
>If they had a shred of customer service ethic maybe their
>business would do better. I tried to spend hundreds of
>dollars on a direct order (and they're right across the Bay)
>and it was a nightmare. There's obviously not very much
>cooperation among the staff.
>
> >
>>I went and saw Stephano Scaribbio, being probably the greatest
>>bass player alive, At LACMA. even they are discontinuting the
>>monday evening concerts after 50 years, a series started by
>>Stravinsky. This is one of the world's best known new music
>>series.
>> >>
>
>I couldn't find him on the web. Google suggests
>"Stefano Scarabeo", but I don't see anything about a bass
>player.
>
>-Carl
>
Scodanibbio. At least two CDs on New Albion.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

On Wednesday 19 October 2005 12:34 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > No, the effect to day is that you can shit in a toilet instead
> > of a trench (like in China) where you can get a disease.
>
> As it happens, I was just arguing on this list that trenches
> are far superior to toilets.

I'm aware of that. I think you are out of your mind on that one.

Or, you enjoy the smell of shit enough to want to use a trench or an outhouse
instead.

> > I forgot to mention, you shouldn't use toilets if you are
> > anti-science/technology.
>
> I think toilets are among the most primitive shitting
> technologies around.

What's the next generation shitting technology?

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>>>I forgot to mention, you shouldn't use toilets if you are
>>>anti-science/technology.
>>> >>>
>>I think toilets are among the most primitive shitting
>>technologies around.
>> >>
>
>What's the next generation shitting technology?
> >
The vacuum cleaner. Folks gonna love that.
-- * David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> >What's the next generation shitting technology?
> >
> The vacuum cleaner. Folks gonna love that.

That sucks.

Jon

> Scodanibbio. At least two CDs on New Albion.

Tx DB.

-C.

> Stefano Scodanibbio,

That did the trick.

> actually i think you are lucky cause i remember hearing he was
> going to be up at mills for a while

Ah, my wife goes to Mills. I'll give her a heads up.

-Carl

> > > I forgot to mention, you shouldn't use toilets if you are
> > > anti-science/technology.
> >
> > I think toilets are among the most primitive shitting
> > technologies around.
>
> What's the next generation shitting technology?

Something that dries it out. But you have to train people
not to pee on top of it.... might be difficult.

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>Stefano Scodanibbio,
>> >>
>
>That did the trick.
>
> >
>> actually i think you are lucky cause i remember hearing he was
>>going to be up at mills for a while
>> >>
>
>Ah, my wife goes to Mills. I'll give her a heads up.
>
>-Carl
> >

When am I going to get my own posts as email?

He did at least two CDs with Terry Riley too.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Jon Szanto wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> >
>>>What's the next generation shitting technology?
>>> >>> >>>
>>The vacuum cleaner. Folks gonna love that.
>> >>
>
>That sucks.
>
>Jon
>

And that's what's so happening about this.

Ah...musican's hanging and talking shit. It's good that the Yahoo archives don't work very well...

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Actually one of the best examples of both an artist and a scientist is Helmholtz who in his book has little problem talking like one and then the other. some of insights are actually quite refreshing.

> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

i bet the warring parties have different music

Graham Breed wrote:

>Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
>
> >
>>No, the effect to day is that you can shit in a toilet instead of a trench >>(like in China) where you can get a disease.
>> >>
>
>Hey, what's wrong with shitting in trenches? It didn't do me any harm.
>
>
>And, while I'm here.
>
> >
>>In the meantime, please reflect on how the largest massacre/genocide going on >>is intra-racial (in Darfour), not inter-racial.
>> >>
>
>I don't think that's true. Just because they all have dark skin doesn't >make them the same race.
>
>
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
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>
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> >
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> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

only one solo though? the voyage that.............
great live something is wrong with this recording
i know he is on one with riley.
i haven't heard this but if i may be so blunt
( like who has ever stoopped me , including that face in the mirror)
when i say the two live the 2nd time eveytime stephano would get going TR would drown him out. sometimes with the chessiest synth sounds i have heard.
downward glissing pseudo percussion sounds.
TR in general is going through a difficult time as far as what he is putting out there. It is really starting to effect how i hear the older stuff

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>Scodanibbio. At least two CDs on New Albion.
>> >>
>
>Tx DB.
>
>-C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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>
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>
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>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>Scodanibbio. At least two CDs on New Albion.
>> >>
>
>Tx DB.
> >
Sure thing. I'm wonderng when I'm going to see my posts to this list. Friggin Yahoo.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

it was my understanding there was no archives on this list

David Beardsley wrote:

>Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> >
>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>>>>What's the next generation shitting technology?
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>The vacuum cleaner. Folks gonna love that.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>That sucks.
>>
>>Jon
>>
>> >>
>
>
>And that's what's so happening about this.
>
>
>Ah...musican's hanging and talking shit. It's good that the Yahoo >archives don't work very well...
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Wednesday 19 October 2005 1:11 pm, Graham Breed wrote:
> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > No, the effect to day is that you can shit in a toilet instead of a
> > trench (like in China) where you can get a disease.
>
> Hey, what's wrong with shitting in trenches? It didn't do me any harm.

different stokes for different folks...i would puke daily having to shit in a
trench.

> And, while I'm here.
>
> > In the meantime, please reflect on how the largest massacre/genocide
> > going on is intra-racial (in Darfour), not inter-racial.
>
> I don't think that's true. Just because they all have dark skin doesn't
> make them the same race.

well, technically, there is one race, homo sapiens, right? my point was more
about the politics of skin color than anything technical from a biological
POV. but i think you knew that already, and perhaps are being pedantic? :)

-aaron.

Hi Aaron,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 19 October 2005 1:11 pm, Graham Breed wrote:
> > Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > > In the meantime, please reflect on how the
> > > largest massacre/genocide going on is intra-racial
> > > (in Darfour), not inter-racial.
> >
> > I don't think that's true. Just because they all have
> > dark skin doesn't make them the same race.
>
> well, technically, there is one race, homo sapiens, right?

No. _Homo sapiens_ is a species, not a race.

Biologists actually don't recognize any such thing
as a race. "Race" is an outmoded categorization which
most modern scientists only recognize with qualifications.

Note that the conflict in Darfur (which is the correct
spelling in English) is between dark-skinned Muslims on
both sides. It is a basically a typical African ethnic
conflict, the causes of which are economic and cultural,
and have nothing to with race or religion.

-monz

The astrological cycle is based on the year with its two equinoxes and two
solstices. The "Aries Point" is the spring equinox and Aries is simply the
first 30degrees of the cycle, and has nothing to do with the actual
constellation Aries anymore due to precession. As Kraig mentions, the Sabian
symbols differentiate the cycle into 360 parts, while the zodiac into 12 and
the seasons into 4. Its all the same cycle of birth, growth, harvest and
death however you slice it. There is a kind of astology that attempts to use
the present positions of the constellations called "siderial astology" but
it kinda misses the point altogether if you ask me.

Some people think that astrology is about the planets influencing or
imprinting at the moment of birth, but this is a crude "materialist", causal
misreading. The key is the hermetic saying "as above, so below" so that the
configuration of the heavens mirrors the basic configuration of the
personality and visa versa. Planteary energies can work together or be in
conflict depending on their harmonic aspects, something that should come as
no surprise to the acoustic alchemists here, and this situation will find
its expression mirrored in the life of the individual born under this
configuration.

This also applies to minerals in that the sun and gold both manifest a
similar spiritual content in different realms, as does the moon and silver,
etc. It is interesting that the homeopathic remedy made from gold is used to
treat suicidal depression where the person feels cut off from life itself,
and sun deprivation can cause the same kind of depression. These are the
kind of correspondances that astrology and alchemy are about. The outer
world is mirrored in our inner world and visa-versa. Homeopathy has shown
that for each inner mental and emotional state there is a corresponding
substance that can cause (and therefore cure) that state. As above, so
below. As inside, so outside. Each holographic part contains the whole
presenting a different frontal aspect.

There are some for whom the above is the most ridiculous gibberish
imaginable (I mean the ideas not my poor writing). Nevertheless, this kind
of talk would have made perfect sense to the likes of Newton and Kepler, to
mention only two non-trival examples. I shudder to think what life
experienced without these kind of astrological and alchemical considerations
must feel like. At least consider it on a Jungian level of symbolism and
archtypes in the collective sub/super-conscious.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:17 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: tarot, psychics and voodoo mongers
>
>
>obviously they are real and inconclusive, like every other thing
>in science.
> which i guess i am 'debunking:)
>
>
>but one point i want to return to in this thread.
> those who know about the subject would not causally group tarot and
>astrology.
> astrology is the often rejected by those interested in the occult.
> The tarot is based on the Cabala and if nothing else also acts as a
>great tool for comparing ideas in different systems.
> Astrology though has some serious problems that it just refused
>to correct.
> On is that where the planets are supposed to be are a ways off because
>of the precession of the equinox, so when they say that a planet is in a
>particular sign it is if you go out side and look, it will be in a
>different one.
>
> if you rectify this and look at the attributes they don't work as well,
>so whatever phenomenon it is based on is not the stars,. the stars just
>functioned a s something that occurred at the same time as opposed to
>them being the cause.
> there are some very interesting aspects of astrology.
> One is the sabian symbols which are 360 images that came to a person in
>trace over a 2 or 3 year period.
>the one for today ( i find them 3 days off and always read them this
>way) otherwise , i live 3 days in the future, being the laundry mat
>visionary that i am
>
>
>A man in the midst of brightening influences
>
>
>one last comment on astrology.
> one of the methods most use is ancient time was the parts of fortunes
>or what are called the arabic parts, there is almost a hundred of these
>and they are harmonic points in ones chart that are activated by the
>motions of bodies over these.
>
>These are for the most part completely unused.
>
>possibly though Astrology would be much further if the scientist who
>control the paper of Keeper , let astrologers have access to a the over
>200 books he wrote on the subject.
> As you remember this was his job.
>
>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>>>>most scientific studies have either debunked, or found
>>>>inconclusive, the exisitence of such phenomenon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>There seems to me to be an awful lot "inconclusive" being sold
>>>as "debunking".
>>>
>>>
>>
>>What's debunking? Kraig's claiming psychic phenomena are
>>real. If instead they're inconclusive that's a big difference.
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> different stokes for different folks...i would puke daily having
> to shit in a trench.

Have you ever tried it? It's really much better than
"opening up" to a filthy toilet.

> well, technically, there is one race, homo sapiens, right?

Homo sapiens is a genus and specias. I'm not aware of a
technical definition of race.

-Carl

> Planteary energies can work together or be in
> conflict depending on their harmonic aspects,

What does this mean?

> This also applies to minerals in that the sun and gold both
> manifest a similar spiritual content in different realms, as
> does the moon and silver,

Says who?

> These are the kind of correspondances that astrology and
> alchemy are about. The outer world is mirrored in our
> inner world and visa-versa. Homeopathy has shown that for
> each inner mental and emotional state there is a corresponding
> substance that can cause (and therefore cure) that state.

Damn, just when I was thinking alchemy, astrology, and
homeopathy might be something other than total BS.

> Each holographic part contains the whole
> presenting a different frontal aspect.

Holograms too? Let's add in a tachyon pulse and re-route
the subspace conduit for good measure.

> I shudder to think what life experienced without these kind
> of astrological and alchemical considerations must feel like.

I find these fancies far less wonderful than most theories
that actually make sense.

-Carl

>> Planteary energies can work together or be in
>> conflict depending on their harmonic aspects,
>
>What does this mean?

Think of it like musical intervals- when two notes with harmonic spectra are
in a 2:1 or 3:2 relationship, there is more blending and consonance than if
the interval has higher odd factors. When the positions of planets are in
simple harmonic relationships the energies they symbolize also blend or
conflict depending on the ratios. As above so below.

>> This also applies to minerals in that the sun and gold both
>> manifest a similar spiritual content in different realms, as
>> does the moon and silver,
>
>Says who?

You, if you would take the time to investigate with an open mind. :-)

>> These are the kind of correspondances that astrology and
>> alchemy are about. The outer world is mirrored in our
>> inner world and visa-versa. Homeopathy has shown that for
>> each inner mental and emotional state there is a corresponding
>> substance that can cause (and therefore cure) that state.
>
>Damn, just when I was thinking alchemy, astrology, and
>homeopathy might be something other than total BS.

Even for those too closed minded to consider astrology and alchemy,
ascertaining the validity of homeopathy requires only a minimal
investigation of medical history and current praxis.

>> Each holographic part contains the whole
>> presenting a different frontal aspect.
>
>Holograms too? Let's add in a tachyon pulse and re-route
>the subspace conduit for good measure.

The holographic paradigm fits perfectly with the older paradigms of
astrology and alchemy. Making fun of it doesn't change that.

Jung sees 12 as a combination of the archetypes of 3 and 4.
That i went from 31 to 22 and now to 12 tones per octave says something.
In other cultures 12 is not as common as it is for us. 8 in more common in the far east
and actually if our clock had 16 hours of the equivalent of 90 minutes in length, it would be more in keeping with human biorhythms
perhaps we are just so hard wired into it, we cannot step outside it.
in which case what you are doing is the right thing to do, just go deeper into it

monz wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
>
> >
>
>12-ism is something that has permeated much of human
>culture, from a long time ago. >
>Ancient people saw a big connection between music and
>the cosmos. I'm so fascinated with this that i formed
>a whole Yahoo group for it:
>
>/celestial-tuning/
>
>
>There's the possibility that there is a connection
>between the 12-month year and 12-tone scales, besides
>just the number 12.
>
>
>
> >
>>i'm also certain that at the time of my birth, the layout
>>of stars all thousands or millions of light years away
>>from earth and each other had an insignificant, to be
>>generous, effect on me. have you ever considered that >>the very idea of a constellation is not even universal
>>culture to culture? a constellation is a shape we see and
>>put upon something that is not really 'there'.
>> >>
>
>
>As you said, Aaron, humans are pattern-seeking creatures.
>We will see -- or impose -- patterns wherever we can find
>them.
>
>I see nothing inherently wrong with that ... after all,
>pattern manipulation and recognition is one of the things
>that makes much music enjoyable.
>
>There's very little great music that has no kind of
>periodicity -- Schoenberg's _Erwartung_ (in which the
>composer *deliberately* eschewed any kind of repetition
>for the sake of achieving "stream of consciousness",
>to fantastic success IMO) is perhaps the only example
>i can think of.
>
> >
>-monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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>
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>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
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>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Thursday 20 October 2005 12:51 am, monz wrote:
> Hi Aaron,
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
>
> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 19 October 2005 1:11 pm, Graham Breed wrote:
> > > Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > > > In the meantime, please reflect on how the
> > > > largest massacre/genocide going on is intra-racial
> > > > (in Darfour), not inter-racial.
> > >
> > > I don't think that's true. Just because they all have
> > > dark skin doesn't make them the same race.
> >
> > well, technically, there is one race, homo sapiens, right?
>
> No. _Homo sapiens_ is a species, not a race.

my bad....yes, _homo sapiens_ are a species.

> Biologists actually don't recognize any such thing
> as a race. "Race" is an outmoded categorization which
> most modern scientists only recognize with qualifications.

obviously, there are gentic characteristic which are recognizable which also
sustain these categories in human perception. I can imagine that the
rejection of the idea of race is partially a politically-correct motivation,
because how might we explain the ease with which people recognize blacks,
asians, germans, italians, greeks, etc.

> Note that the conflict in Darfur (which is the correct
> spelling in English) is between dark-skinned Muslims on
> both sides. It is a basically a typical African ethnic
> conflict, the causes of which are economic and cultural,
> and have nothing to with race or religion.

i don't know, but i think the conflict ought be considered about what the
people from within the conflict claim it to be about. human history shows
that genocide usually is accompanied by claims of subhuman characteristics by
the killers regarding the killed, which tends to be based on ethnic tensions.
i guess i question the difference in definition between 'ethnicity' and 'race'
in your above statement.

we hear so much about Darfour in the news, but very little is said about why
it is happening. like, where can we go to hear genuine quotes from the
aggressors about the victims, and vice/versa, etc.?

you are certainly correct that the economics of lack of natural resources and
cash distributions plays into the underlying hatred as well. but i also think
religious tension is/has always been a reason for humans to kill one another.
witness the modern example of sunni/shia iraqis. or protestant/catholic
ireland. the list goes on.....

On Thursday 20 October 2005 12:51 am, monz wrote:

> Note that the conflict in Darfur (which is the correct
> spelling in English)

i think i misspelled 'darfur' again. thanks for the correction.

--aaron

Carl Lumma wrote:

> Holograms too? Let's add in a tachyon pulse and re-route
> the subspace conduit for good measure.

Oh no!! Don't add the tachyon pulse *and* re-route the subspace conduit! At least, not without first recirculating the ion flux resonance. You might precipitate a catastrophe in the interdimensional quantum vortex. I hope I don't need to spell out what *that* will lead to. Decoherent baryons all over the fermionic matrix, for a start.

Graham

yes it is easy to pick on poetry, especially when it above your head.
I am the braided hair that comes out of your kitchen faucet and is tied around the gang graffiti on your stove

Graham Breed wrote:

>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> >
>>Holograms too? Let's add in a tachyon pulse and re-route
>>the subspace conduit for good measure.
>> >>
>
>Oh no!! Don't add the tachyon pulse *and* re-route the subspace >conduit! At least, not without first recirculating the ion flux >resonance. You might precipitate a catastrophe in the interdimensional >quantum vortex. I hope I don't need to spell out what *that* will lead >to. Decoherent baryons all over the fermionic matrix, for a start.
>
>
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
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>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> yes it is easy to pick on poetry, especially when it above
> your head.

Excuse me, I didn't think poetry is what was being attempted
here. I thought we were "trying to establish the fabric of
consensus reality". Dante?

> I am the braided hair that comes out of your kitchen faucet
> and is tied around the gang graffiti on your stove

This sounds more like poetry.

-Carl

Poetry, like music, tries to reach that which is beyond contingent
"consensus reality". In that respect, yes, astrology and alchemy are poetry,
which is what I believe Kraig was intimating.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Carl Lumma
>Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:36 PM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: tarot, psychics and voodoo mongers
>
>
>> yes it is easy to pick on poetry, especially when it above
>> your head.
>
>Excuse me, I didn't think poetry is what was being attempted
>here. I thought we were "trying to establish the fabric of
>consensus reality". Dante?
>
>> I am the braided hair that comes out of your kitchen faucet
>> and is tied around the gang graffiti on your stove
>
>This sounds more like poetry.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
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possibly reality cannot be apprehended without poetry and poetic gesture

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>yes it is easy to pick on poetry, especially when it above
>>your head.
>> >>
>
>Excuse me, I didn't think poetry is what was being attempted
>here. I thought we were "trying to establish the fabric of
>consensus reality". Dante?
>
> >
>>I am the braided hair that comes out of your kitchen faucet
>>and is tied around the gang graffiti on your stove
>> >>
>
>This sounds more like poetry.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I was afraid you'd say that. :)

> possibly reality cannot be apprehended without poetry and
> poetic gesture
>
> Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> >>yes it is easy to pick on poetry, especially when it above
> >>your head.
> >
> >Excuse me, I didn't think poetry is what was being attempted
> >here. I thought we were "trying to establish the fabric of
> >consensus reality". Dante?
> >
> >>I am the braided hair that comes out of your kitchen faucet
> >>and is tied around the gang graffiti on your stove
> >
> >This sounds more like poetry.
> >
> >-Carl

http://homokaasu.org/gasgames/game.gas?11

this one's kinda fun too:

http://homokaasu.org/gasgames/game.gas?21

i know it really was an easy way out.
but it as i said, it is funny to argue against science since argument is a part of the scientific process.
Sorry if i get kranky, my back is not treating me that well and this has gone on sine Feb.
but we have better things to think about.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>I was afraid you'd say that. :)
>
> >
>>possibly reality cannot be apprehended without poetry and
>>poetic gesture
>>
>>Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>>yes it is easy to pick on poetry, especially when it above
>>>>your head.
>>>> >>>>
>>>Excuse me, I didn't think poetry is what was being attempted
>>>here. I thought we were "trying to establish the fabric of
>>>consensus reality". Dante?
>>>
>>> >>>
>>>>I am the braided hair that comes out of your kitchen faucet
>>>>and is tied around the gang graffiti on your stove
>>>> >>>>
>>>This sounds more like poetry.
>>>
>>>-Carl
>>> >>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> i know it really was an easy way out.
> but it as i said, it is funny to argue against science since
> argument is a part of the scientific process.

Yeah.

> Sorry if i get kranky, my back is not treating me that well
> and this has gone on sine Feb.

Hope you're feeling better.

> but we have better things to think about.

Yup!

-Carl

Hi Aaron,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:

> obviously, there are gentic characteristic which are
> recognizable which also sustain these categories [races]
> in human perception. I can imagine that the rejection
> of the idea of race is partially a politically-correct
> motivation, because how might we explain the ease with
> which people recognize blacks, asians, germans, italians,
> greeks, etc.

Ah, but what about this old joke?

white person: "all blacks look alike"
black person: "all asians look alike"
asian person: "all whites look alike"

> > [monz]
> > Note that the conflict in Darfur (which is the correct
> > spelling in English) is between dark-skinned Muslims on
> > both sides. It is a basically a typical African ethnic
> > conflict, the causes of which are economic and cultural,
> > and have nothing to with race or religion.
>
> i don't know, but i think the conflict ought be considered
> about what the people from within the conflict claim it to
> be about.

Yes, that's always a good idea.

> human history shows that genocide usually is accompanied
> by claims of subhuman characteristics by the killers
> regarding the killed, which tends to be based on ethnic
> tensions. i guess i question the difference in definition
> between 'ethnicity' and 'race' in your above statement.

That's a good point. In a sense, they are both the same
thing ... i suppose the only real difference is that "race"
is usually used to apply to much larger groups of people,
and "ethnicity" to smaller groups.

But historically, "race" has generally been defined more
in terms of skin color and other physical characteristics
than anything else. "Ethnicity" can be defined much more
subtly, a lot of the criteria being culturally determined.

But then again here too, "race" almost always also has
cultural implications.

As far as getting news on Darfur -- good luck. Here
in America-uber-Alles it's getting harder and harder
to find real news on *anything* amidst all the propaganda.

-monz

> > different stokes for different folks...i would puke daily having
> > to shit in a trench.

You may be thinking of a non-optimal trench.

The bottom line with toilets is that they turn something that's
supposed to be beneficial to the earth into poison.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> You may be thinking of a non-optimal trench.

If at some point you start showing how to best optimize the trench, I
hope you'll have the good sense to start a trench-math (or s**t-math)
list! :) And please, don't drag Tenney into this one...

Cheers,
Jon

> > You may be thinking of a non-optimal trench.
>
> If at some point you start showing how to best optimize the
> trench, I hope you'll have the good sense to start a
> trench-math (or s**t-math) list! :) And please, don't drag
> Tenney into this one...

:):)

I've already described my optimal trench in this thread
(yours may differ)...

>Ah yes, it does depend on where you are. I came up with
>that for rocky, mountainous Pennsylvania. It works very
>well if you sprikle some dirt on every time, and don't pee
>in it, and don't have too many people using it. When it
>gets half full you top it off with dirt and make a new ditch.
>It's completely hygenic. Toilets are where to go to find
>disgusting germs. And shitting and peeing in the same place
>is a bad idea. Shitting into water is a terrible f****
>idea. The whole thing is daft.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> > > different stokes for different folks...i would puke daily having
> > > to shit in a trench.
>
> You may be thinking of a non-optimal trench.
>
> The bottom line with toilets is that they turn something that's
> supposed to be beneficial to the earth into poison.

Unfortunately, most of the "something that's supposed to be
beneficial to the earth" when we shit is already turned into
poison before it reaches the toilet, because of the garbage
that most of us eat.

-monz

Too bad that this thread evolved into the discussion of
toilets without changing the subject line. I've been wanting
to bring Mahler into this somehow but resisted, until now.

Here's a quote from one of Mahler's letters -- i imagine
that Kraig and Jon will like it most:

>> "Is the world less puzzling if you build it out of matter?
>> What does it explain, to say that it is ruled by the play
>> of mechanical forces? Who does the playing? You believe in
>> the conservation of energy, and the indestructibility of
>> matter. But are those things not other forms of immortality?
>> Shift the problem as you choose -- in the end, you will
>> always come to the point where your philosophy begins to
>> dream."

-monz

Excellent quote! Thats why its better to recognize/admit that worldviews
("scientific" or "religious") are dreams/poetry right from the beginning, so
then you can choose your poetry freely by predilection, whim, or
disposition. Some worldviews allow you to construct machines, others allow
you to commune with the depths or communicate powerfully among fellows. Its
not either/or and its certainly not better/worse, despite the crusades of
either side's zealots. The point is not to have only a left brain or only a
right brain, or have them at war, but to have them singing together.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of monz
>Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:30 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: artists/scientists
>
>
>Too bad that this thread evolved into the discussion of
>toilets without changing the subject line. I've been wanting
>to bring Mahler into this somehow but resisted, until now.
>
>Here's a quote from one of Mahler's letters -- i imagine
>that Kraig and Jon will like it most:
>
>>> "Is the world less puzzling if you build it out of matter?
>>> What does it explain, to say that it is ruled by the play
>>> of mechanical forces? Who does the playing? You believe in
>>> the conservation of energy, and the indestructibility of
>>> matter. But are those things not other forms of immortality?
>>> Shift the problem as you choose -- in the end, you will
>>> always come to the point where your philosophy begins to
>>> dream."
>
>
>
>-monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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On Saturday 22 October 2005 2:30 am, monz wrote:
> Too bad that this thread evolved into the discussion of
> toilets without changing the subject line. I've been wanting
> to bring Mahler into this somehow but resisted, until now.
>
> Here's a quote from one of Mahler's letters -- i imagine
>
> that Kraig and Jon will like it most:
> >> "Is the world less puzzling if you build it out of matter?
> >> What does it explain, to say that it is ruled by the play
> >> of mechanical forces? Who does the playing? You believe in
> >> the conservation of energy, and the indestructibility of
> >> matter. But are those things not other forms of immortality?
> >> Shift the problem as you choose -- in the end, you will
> >> always come to the point where your philosophy begins to
> >> dream."

good quote....and it can also be turned on its' head, if you think about it.

in other words, if every philosophy 'dreams', then there ain't anything
particularly special about dreaming...

-aaron.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@a...>
wrote:
> good quote....and it can also be turned on its' head, if you think
about it.

That's the problem with obsessively thinking too much, you steam-roll
all the lyricism out of life. :)

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@a...>
> wrote:
> > good quote....and it can also be turned on its' head, if you
think
> about it.
>
> That's the problem with obsessively thinking too much, you steam-
roll
> all the lyricism out of life. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Yo, Jon!

Not to mention all the nuance AND precision.

If I may,

> at the hands
> of fanatical Christian fundamentalists, set back the evolution
> of modern technology by at least 1500 years.

It might be felicitious that we had to wait so long for depleted
uranium bullets, etc.

And whatever violence may have been done to the physical records of
great thinkers, except for the murders of their actual selves, I
suspect that their rigourous thinking and perspicacious discernment
went untouched. Those are "spiritual" qualities. What of libraries
today? Have you got a good one in your vicinity that's open to the
public, and keeps reasonably long hours? If so, you are blessed. I
don't. I don't blame fundamentalists for that, I blame miserly men
and women of all ideological inflections.

May I politely suggest that if we insist on bringing WIA's
(Willfully Ignorant Assholes) into the discussion, perhaps we could
do the world a service and strip them of their honorifics,
eg "Christian", "Muslim", "scientific", etc. Thus they would only
be referred to as WIA's, and no insult to the integrity and good
will of genuinely humble and respectfully curious persons could be
inferred.

(I'm really not sure who does more violence to the honorific
term "Christian", Pat Robertson or Carl Sagan. I tend towards the
former, though. Strongly. ;-)

> I can imagine that the rejection
> of the idea of race is partially a politically-correct
> motivation

Is this an example of scientific fundamentalism? When science
asserts that what your weak little eyes seem to see so clearly is in
fact trivial, you accuse it of PC, or "legislating from the bench"?
Which race's women or men or children do you think are more
beautiful?

If I say a rose is redder than a jasmine flower, I am probably on
secure footing. If I say it is more beautiful or more pleasingly
fragrant, I am doubtless guilty of prejudice, no?
For f***'s sake…

I really need to see that list. All of the genuinely poor and
ignorant people I've ever met were generous to a fault, non-
judgmental, and frankly but gently curious.

It's this semi-ignorant presumption and hostility that's truly
dangerous.

Pete